Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: Living History of Langeleben
may I start by asking that this 'subject' is the only one dealt with. No disappearing down each and every avenue. PLEASE
The subject of producing what I have called "The Living History of Langeleben" was brought up at the AGM and received a warm reception. There was some caution; some members still concerned about the secret nature of what they had done. May I assure everyone that we did nothing that the Soviets were not fully aware of. They may not have called them 'E type or B type callsigns' but they certainly knew more than we did about them!
What I want is contributions from as many memebers as possible. This will then end up in a document -even a book which can be deposited at the Imperial War Museum. It will tell future generations what the Cold War meant to National Servicemen originally and then Regular soldiers.
I am posting this to let those who did not attend the reunion know that the project has received the formal go ahead and I will be writing more about the suggested structure and content soon. In the meantime, get those memories dusted down keyboards clicking even pens writing. The number of additional photographs that appeared last week was amazing and even more are promised. Have you dug out your's yet?
It could be very good. It certainly will be unique!
I have been giving this some thought and unless told otherwise I feel that the forum is not the right place to collect and collate all the information that I hope will flood in.
I think the way to do this is to set up a group and send everything via email. It should then be easy to save everything as 'word' documents or
spreadsheets or phootos.
I fhis is acceptable I would love to receive the email address (and names) of anyone who is interested in participating. It would also be of immense help if you could mention the period(s) when you served at Langeleben and what was your job or speciality. I know a bit about the I. Corps in the 50's and Langeleben then too otherwise I know nothing outside of JR's little book. But I will learn given the chance!
I agree with you that the forum is not suitable as a mail-box for contributions. But do you think we could keep this Topic open as a place to discuss editorial questions? Like, for example:
Is there a maximum permissible length?
Do you want certain basic information about each contributor to be submitted in the same way?
How relevant is pre-Langeleben and post-Langeleben experience?
How relevant is what happened to us after demob?
There will no doubt be others.
I think all contributors should agree (as I readily do) that the editor's word is final, and not complain when their beautifully crafted prose (or poetry) is, for editorial reasons, cut down to size.
Hello Gordon
Of course we should keep this open.
If there is just the one contributor then length is arbitrary, I suppose.
Anonymity will be preserved if wished. JR went for the initial option whereas Geoffrey Elliott went for the whole hog
Pre and post Langeleben if relevant I believe to be quite important. How we were drawn in to the foul plot .... did we get any benefit post discharge etc..
Wow, am I editor?
I have received my first contribution and it is exactly what I am hoping for. He's been a bit too modest for my liking though!
F.W. Winterbottom's book 'The Ultra Secret' the first on the subect was first published in 1974 some twenty years after Ultra had done its job. The main task of the book was to promote the importance was to promote the writer. He was not the best man to explain the background and nor have many of the dozens of books which have followed. I cannot recall any book delving into the mysteries of callsigns their importance and their recovery. NOTHING ABOUT FREQUENCIES. We all know that if you write a letter and leave off the name and address of both the recipient and the sender it is of little or no value. I have never seen any mention of radio networks and their importance in estblishing the Order of Battle so loved by military intelligence.
Frankly, it is because of the reticence of our pre-decessors that this has not been explored and recorded and I don't want this to go unrecorded.
To read the literature you would think that Ultra was broken due entirely to the genius of some Oxford and Cambridge geniuses. Let's face it, without someone having either obtained or broken the code book it would have been of damn all use. How often in OUR experience have we been saved by some Op Spec or Spec Op recognising the 'hand' of an operator - someone who he will never meet but know so well. Time and time again operator errors picked up by humble chaps like us (well you) were the key to a breakthrough. Who remembers the appalling nightmare when they went over to 'E' type callsigns. One blank page after another. That's worth a chapter on it's own. Did it ever happen again?
Would anyone volunteer to write about the 'Q' code as used by the Russkies? QSA imi is probably about my limit but I bet that Tom could write a chapter on this alone. I would love it if he did.
Can you see the direction in which I want to take this project? It is the potential personal nature that is so important. How did you all learn morse for example? I know Nobby Clarke had a headstart but what about the rest of you?
My introduction to the Morse Code was of course Catterick.
I did quiet well as a trainee winning a prize of a fountain pen and propelling pencil, I mucked it up though, so suprised was I that I marched up to the front to collect it and saluted, without my beret on, ohh I'll never forget, no wonder I never got promotion.
Yes some did have a start, Merchant Marine rings a bell and did they learn Morse Code in the scouts?. lol.
Now which Nobby Clarke would that be Paul, there was one just in front of me but I only knew him at Nordholtz, he left just as I arrived, I took over his girlfriend, just a platonic friendship, honest. _________________ My lifes ambition, to be a tramp, I'm getting there.
I am getting the contributions that I had hoped for. Well done those who have made a contribution and those who are about to do so.
In general terms give briefly but fully your service details.
When you served at Langeleben and the length of time.
What precisely was your job. If an NCO were you responsible for any particular watch.
I think we need details of things that will not happen again. For example National Service. Pre I Corps experience, and dare I raise the subject of what we called 'Boy soldiers'. This is something the I Corps knew nothing about and as far as I know has disappeared completely. If I remember correctly Bob Wells came through this route and his career was pretty good and certainly very long. (I am working on your photos now Bob. XXX)
Don't be so shy in writing, let me decide what is boring.
Can anyone throw any light on the strike that Fred sanderson has recalled? He is a bit vague re the background. There vwere also Ops who looked after teleprinter transmissions that spewed out vast amounts of tape. Dave Rackliffe of the I Corps used to go round looking extremely important and looking at all those holes as if he could read them. (perhaps he could! He ended up as a Chief detective Superintendant in the Kent Police and, in a Special Branch capacity, actually went back to the I Corps Depot at Ashford to lecture. Small world!The word "Baudot" suddenly dredges itself from my memory. I've just looked it up on Wikopaedia and so I am slightly the wiser.
Who is going to volunteer to write on how you learned morse. I nreckon Nobby Clarke could do a damned good job of this!
If you send to my direct email address it will make life much easier. It is paul.croxson@ntlworld.com.
Does anyone know how to turn a 'forum entry' into a word document?????
Joined: 15 Aug 2005 Posts: 577 Location: Fulford, North Staffordshire
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: Instant Langeleben
Paul, I caught your comment on the 'Does anyone remember the I Corps' post. Please appreciate that my total knowledge of ow't is 225 Signal Squadron and 13 Sigs. There are a lot of ex 225 who contribute to the 225 Scharfoldendorf site who do not appear on this site and equally the same from Birgelin. Have a look at the 225 Scharf site and view the photo album. Be warned, however, do not go onto the 'Guest Book' as it is highly infected with RU. porn and viagra sites. I will give you my 'log on and password' off line if you wish to leave a message. You can,however, get the Photo Album just by clicking on to the following and then follow directions
http://www.mardavhal.fsnet.co.uk
Ow'd Phart Grey Grumpy AND bound to be summat or other - MTH - _________________ 77 88 Old, Fat, Grey & Grumpy
The GNT machines used in the telecoms industry used punched tape and the number of characters were calculated in 'bauds per minute',this is a printer transmission rate which roughly equates to WPM or words per minute.
On merchant ships the radio officer would punch up the tape and when comms were established the GNT would be switched on and the traffic sent,maybe ten or twenty at a time before 'QSL',or agree how many to receive before acknowledge.
When russkie ops were going well they would each send a letter of the 'Q' code taking it in turns making direction finding difficult,their merchant navy ops were even slicker.(the cuban crisis is the evidence of this).All done with the dreaded bug key,horizontal keying.
Mike, thank you.
How about you advertising what I am trying to do on that website for me?
Too many Viagra ads will just go to remind me what I lost when the prostatiitis took root
Mr Shorep. Thank you, that's a start. So who were we monitoring using the teleprinters than? As Oliver Twist said MORE!!!!!!
Is the key you refer to what we called in the good old days a "side swiper"?
Various types of bug keys or side swipes,especially with units in the field as I am led to believe,strapped to the thigh of course as all morse keys would be.
As to learning morse it is worth oting,Tom will know more,it took nine months or so to train a spec op,but the russkies were dealing with lads just off the farm and only in for a year or so.The shortcut training involved deviding the morse code into opposites,dash,and dot,eg.a is the opposite of n,b to v and so on,e,i,s,h,5 all dots,t,m,o,so trainees were soon up to twelve words per minute.This is the first 'barrier'and with constant practice speed increase easily to the twenties and beyond.
Printers(like faximile)can be easily be identified by the lilting rattle with a distintive mark and space transmission method.Various organisations 'went to printer'just to get rid of large amounts of traffic,the International link communication systems in the middle east(ILC).The modern form of telegram,date time originator addressee and the subject etc and body of message,just like a radio ops work aboard ship.Many from 9pigs will remeber boring hours listening to these for originators like 'odessa silint night etc,have I said too much???
Joined: 15 Aug 2005 Posts: 577 Location: Fulford, North Staffordshire
Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: Living History of Langeleben
Paul, I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am a nosey old git and would like to read what others have to say on t'other hand I appreciate what you say re getting info re your e-mail address.
I joined the Royal Signals in 1963, intending to be a Radio Op, as I had been in the communications section of my local Civil Defence Corps, which I absolutely loved. It was actually good training for the Army, as a certain sense of discipline and personal pride was instilled.
Catterick, 11 Sigs I have already covered in a previouspost to you but I will still reiterate that out of the youth came the man. Then came 'The Job Interviews'. Basically you were given an intelligence and aptitude test, somewhat on a par with Mensa, (which incidentally I am a member of) but on a lesser scale. The powers that be decided, in their infinite wisdom, that I should become a Special Operator and sent me off to Garats Hey. I was happy as it was only about 60 miles from home, as t'was then.
224 Sigs, after 11 Sigs was heaven, my Instructor was a Scottish Cpl named Rab Aitken and he was GOOD. He cared, about the job, about people and so got the best out of them.
So, as an A3 Spec Op, I was detailed for 225 Signal Squadron, Scharfoldendorf and moved with them in 1967 to Langeleben. You have to understand that Scharfoldendorf was THE posting, although I did not know it at the time. WO2 Gobby Blease was the SSM and that is the worst I can say about it and he wasn't all that bad.
Come the move to Langeleben and there were not many who were happy to go, me being one. Scharfoldendorf was a unique posting and 'C' Troop was more like a family. However, came the day and off we went and arrived at Butlins. Greatcoats, not Redcoats and billets not barrack rooms. A proper bed, not a metal monster, with a bedhead that pulled down and gave access to a personal items storage area. Individual lighting and even a carpet on the floor. The only fault in the whole place was that Marlene had yet ot come to the NAAFI.
Langeleben was now 225 Signal Squadron, the BELL was hung and the boys were now in town.
Sorry Paul, phone has rung and I've got to do run to Presteigne, let me know if you want me to continue and if so to which address.
Old Fat Grey Grumpy and where's me Sat Nav - MTH - _________________ 77 88 Old, Fat, Grey & Grumpy
Right Croxson,now you started sumfink,go to KLOTH.net and look in radio/Qcodes,all the codes pertaining to military use/merchant navy use.Yer QSA/B are,as you say signal reports,QSB QSD are name,vessel etc.enjoy,or delagete the Q code to a willing hand.Your idea of having various people compiling various sections sounds about right,Hudson has started the trade selection process and doing well,enjoy!!!
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The GNT machines used in the telecoms industry used punched tape and the number of characters were calculated in 'bauds per minute',this is a printer transmission rate which roughly equates to WPM or words per minute.
