History of Langeleben

paul croxson · History of Langeleben

I approach this subject with some trepidation.
We have an excellent little history of the Camp, whoever was responsible "Thank you"..
This forum has produced some wonderful vignettes of the Camp over its life but is, by its very nature, very transitory.
May I formally make a suggestion that a more permanent record be created, made into a booklet or even, with the Author's approval, be amalgamated with the History.
I don't know how many of the 'Founding Fathers' there are left and certainly there are not that many of the Fifties crowd around and it was they who created the spirit of the place that lived on for so many years.
I would be happy to do or help in whatever is necessary to produce such a record - I did it for my Old School.
When completed there is a natural home for it, The Imperial War Museum who would be delighted to receive it for their records. I personally would love to have a copy for myself.
Part of it would have to cover the 'work' that we did. Time has erased any security element that may have existed but we know that the Rusians knew exactly what we were doing. Anyway, if there are any doubts they can be cleared with the Ministry of Defence

misterbee

Great idea Paul. The history section on this site is excellent but even more detail would make it magnificent. I would love to help but I think you can gather by my postings that my memory does not serve me well for those times. I can put together fragments from a 'techie' point of view. Dave B

GerryK · Langeleben History

It sounds a great idea Paul. Have you ever seen a copy of the book ,which was produced for the close down? I will bring it with me next month. You may glean some info from it.

paul croxson

Gerry'
Indeed I did. I have a copy somewhere hence my referring to it. Who wrote it? Do you know?

paul croxson

This is a completely mad idea!
Gordon et al. Is there any way, if this goes ahead, (and I hope it does) that we could get a contribution from I would loosely call the 'Other side'?
I found a website on 3rd Shock Army which seems to be staffed by dotty Americans.
I told you it was a mad idea!

jr

paul croxson

Dear Mr J.R
May I take it from your response that he who must be bribed is, in principle, in favour of this project? Perhaps in view of his vast knowledge and undoubted literary talents he might consider orchestrating the entire project.

jr

In principle, the bard has no objections.

The small history had it's origins as a souvenir programme for the close-down festivities, nothing more, and short contributions were invited from those ex-inmates we could contact in a short period of time, to cover the four decades of operations. In the event, some old comrades supplied a great amount of material, the late Sid Grimshaw, for instance, the unit pay clerk in the 50s, sent around ten pages of foolscap, containing much interesting detail. Others submitted equally interesting reminiscences from their times with the various units. Our President remembered carrying out the Recce to find the site; a member of the probe section dispatched to set up the first intercept operation related his experiences. Photographs added to the Bard's knowledge.

After a short time he realised that he had in his hands an (incomplete) short history of the unit. The Bard set to on the SQMS's PC and in a remarkably short space of time for him (about a week) produced the first draft. This was submitted to the Unit Security Officer, and CO for approval, which was forthcoming. Wolters' brewery paid for the printing. Obviously, at the time he was constrained by what could be said (or not) regarding operations. (Old habits die hard).

Unfortunately the original material was lost after the untimely death of our then Secretary, Frank Mitchell. Some of the original contributors are no longer among us, so we would have to basically start over from scratch again. We do have the advantage nowadays of electronic media and this forum for research. A suitable appeal for memoirs could be made at the Reunion, see what the response is like, then take it from there.

paul croxson

Excellent!
Doesd Ernie read this or should I contact him direct on this subject

David Thomas

Hi Guys, Yes I agree, I think a history of Langelaben would be a wonderful exercise. Such a project will need someone to co-ordinate it. No, I’m not making a bid for the job myself, not because I’m afraid of all the hard work (which I know from experience it will be), but because there are others much better qualified to do it. Clearly most of us have bits we can chip in, but deciding on what goes in and what is better left out is going to be a very delicate task. I do like the idea of “A view from the East”, it would also be very interesting to get the host population view, we might be surprised if not a little chastened to learn what they thought of us. If it does get off the ground, it might be a good idea to have a new major topic laying alongside, Reunions UK & Ger. and General just for the history input. Even if it doesn’t ever come to fruition it will give us something to talk about over the weekend. All the best, Dave T.

paul croxson

I am glad this is developing and meeting so far with approval. I like the idea of the locals' view of us. It certainly was not all smiles in '55 when they achieved sovereignty as I have written previously. To get an impression we need people who are approaching 80 I suppose and who are not bar owners.
I have been reading letters that I wrote to my sister in Winter 55/56 and from November on, the weather was lousy (snow) and apart from a trip a week to town nothing much happened and I was fairly honest with her. In one letter I go on about the problems of changing some pound notes that she had sent for my birthday and a half share of parental Xmas presents. I had completely forgotten how useless they were.

Mike Hudson · History of Langeleben

Genitals, may I add my support to what St Paul, on his road to Magdeburg and Weimar, started with trepidation. Whilst accepting that the ' Flag on the Reichstag ' 3RD Shock were the 'Big Boys ', don't forget the Guards, 8 Guards being my speciality.
I have seen the 3RD Shock site and agree with Paul, though ' Wacky ' IS BEING VERY RESTRAINED! I haven't had the chance to look yet but try Wilkipedia, I have found it to be very informative and useful.
Lastly, try posting a request on the Birgelin Vets and the 225 Scharf sites, there are hundreds that look but never post that may be dragged out of the woodwork.
Old Phart Grey and Grumpy as well as clueless -MTH - Embarassed

jr

paul croxson

This is moving nicely. It can defiinitely work

Mike Hudson · History of Langeleben

Croxson you swine, ARE YOU MY WIFE? Those were the very words that Hilary shouted in my ear trumpet on our wedding night.
' This is moving nicely. It can defiinitely work '
I will not regale what followed but it didn't!
Old Phart Grey Grumpy and walking with a limp - MTH - Embarassed

Fred Sanderson · Memories

Hi folks,
Just returning after a long absence, jogged by JR who I've met elsewhere and we swopped a story or two.
I'm so glad that Paul is still hear, his memories are mine.
I served from jan 1953 to jan 1956, mostly at Munster and Birgelin with a short cold winter spell at Langeleben which I think was the winter of 1955/56, as a signalman, not the I core. Crying or Very sad

Yes it was the tented camp at this time, very rarely getting undressed for a wash, putting pyjamas over your work clothes to go to bed, sleeping if your lucky with night temps I should imagine down to -20F or less.

Duty shifts in the vans with electric foot warmers, unless the generator broke down which was often, all this meant was no lights, no work, possibly the food was cooked on solid fuel. so we did eat and drink.

I had my first and only taste of venison at Langeleben, one that, no it didn't fall off the back of a lorry but was knocked down by one somewhere on the forest road. The cook made a great job of it, he was also very good with sauces, I never did know his name.

Our NAFFI was the local pub, Frou Graff I think ran it though I've seen other interpretations of the name. They served a wonderfull Steak, mit Egg and chips.
Herr Smitt rings a bell but..........

WE were often on the few pairs of ski's, trekking through the forest, not many suitable slopes, there was one, through the trees that ended up at the track at the bottom with a ditch, of course I tried jumping over the ditch, just as well the snow was a couple of feet thick, I was head first in it.
One passtime was following deer and wild boar tracks but we never followed the wild boar ones into the thickest and darkest parts, very scary.

The odd break was had in Brunswiche!? (spelling) rooms in a city camp and trips into the town, remember the great steel gates hiding off some streets, I often wondered why. Twisted Evil

We did have a very enjoyable night in a club, listening to some great live Jazz I think it was, I didn't drink much at the time but I think as the entrace was free the drinks were expensive.
Ohh we had a bath/shower here.!! Laughing

no, not in the club, back at the City camp.

I remember very few names, only one, Harry Kitson we went through the three years together, not exactly as best mates as he was always on a different shift both at Birgelen and Langeleben but I kept in touch untill his death some years ago.
Having said I remember few names, many mentioned of the 1950's do sound familier.

I also did another short winter spell at Nordholtz, it wasn't called that then, but thats another story.
Keep em comming Paul.
I think that'l do for now.
Cheers, Fred.

paul croxson

Bloody Hell Fred. Are you still alive too?
Marvellous to read your bit and will reply in full once I have put young Hudson in his place. These youngsters can be so uppity.

paul croxson

I remember the venison episode too, Fred. I can't remember who was the driver but I can tell you that the butcher was the water cart driver who also did a nice line in shoe repairs, using thorns instead of nails. Those shoes to which Mr Dave takes un/reasonable exception were repaired by him with this method and lasted for years. He must have made the sauce as Scouse the cook couldn't even make gravy.
I can almost feel the cold now. As you say, we wore our pyjamas under our denims for literally weeks(6?) and do you remember those Jungle green underpants with those strings on?
I recall being warned by an 'old soldier' not to leave my boots on the tent floor. I soon found out why. Overnight they simply froze to the floor and I rapidly learned to hang them from the ridge pole. It well beat -20deg. One night the suspension or brake fluid (or something) froze in the 3 tonner and was just like lard. Carrying those brown basins full of hot water on the ice and down the catwalk to the tent very carefully meant that it was cold before you got 'home'. If you rushed you spilled the damned stuff.
It was Frau Grahn who fed us. Everything was with Kartoffeln und Speigel eier. (I apologise for my German, I haven't used it for years and will have to work on it a bit for next month. Noch ein bier bitte, is a good start).
Herr Schmidt was the 'Herr Ober' at the Deutscheshaus, the Friday and saturday haunt with the juke box. Elvis was just making the big time.
Those bloody skis. There were 4 so-called pairs I recall. We just about knew they needed waxing. Trying to get the clips to stay on the welt of our boots and around the heel was impossible. That is why all the photos there are show us stationary. I think! I know precisely where you mean re the ditch. I ducked out and fell over before reaching it. I retired from competitive skiing then, swearing never to try them again. Adding this to never ever sleeping in a tent and never climbing a mountain for "fun". I have been better at keeping these than my first wedding vows.
I recall walking back one night, all alone, (and broke) from Schumann's and hearing the boar snuffling alongside. Scared? I was petrified. I would have preferred it to have been the Russkies.
Yes, we did have the use of the apartment in Braunschweig/ Brunswick for baths and, if you dig back, I wrote about the walled street AND someone, believe it or not posted a photo of it. Worthy of a dig around for it.
The jazz club you mention was where I had the unfortunate paybook episode which resulted in my military career coming to an end before it had really started!
Anyway, there will be Mike Stubbings, Pete Ellis, Bob Wells (I hope) at the re-union in June, not forgetting Ernie so the 55/56 lot will be well represented considering our advanced years. Will you be there????

Fred Sanderson

Hi Paul,
Great to see that we have the same memories.
I've just been looking at the photo album, (I found it) I see that I was a collegue! of Bob Wells, we are on the same photo twice, one on ski's the other outside the tent I slept in.

Some faces are quiet familiar but names just aint there. It would be good for those missing to come along and put names to faces.

I see your photo too, no recolection there I'm afraid but on different watches we never sort of mixed.

Hey, do you remember the dog, used to attatch itself to someone and beware if you tried to get near him, I seem to think that while I was there his "Owner" left and it was picking a new friend.

Sadly I won't be at the reunion, I let my passport lapse some years ago as my lady friend had no liking for overseas travel, silly of me I know.
I also have a sleeping problem, in fact I spend most of my night hours on the PC, sleeping perhaps at 7am for a couple of hours, so any travel would be hazardous, especially when driving which is why I stopped the long distance holidays after the last near miss in Wales.

Time to walk the dog, Cheers, Fred.

paul croxson

Fred
I was always on B watch with Bob and I know your name but now need tyo put a face to it. We MUST have worked together! Exactly which one in the photos are you.
It is 55 years ago! Why some names stick and others do not is a great mystery. I do though have an excellent memory for facts but a lousy one for names.
There is a photo somewhere of the dog and Bambi. At one time it attached itse3lf to Stu Brisley the storemen who is in one picture lying on his bed and the other in the store room looking at Bambi.

Fred Sanderson

Hi Paul,
On the photo of the tent I am the one on the left weilding the stick, the one on ski's I think my name is on there. There is also another I put on with three/four of us at Braunswiege railway station, again I think I am named, the smallest of the group, the rest are now strangers.
Hey, I was the good looking one. Twisted Evil

True that we remember certain happenings and people but they didn't have names, well it seems now that they didn't, it was always first name terms anyway.

I do remember a couple of older lads who stuck together and had dodgy friends down in the village, well maybe dodgy women, they spent a lot of time down there, one of them was a bit "gross". Laughing

I think one of the reasons I didn't get out with folks much, drinking and wenching etc was that I was married and sending home spare cash or was it the other way round I kept the spare cash but the bulk of it went home.

paul croxson

Morning Fred,
I think that one of the two you are referring to was a Cpl Fitt. He certainly had a life down in town. Nearly every nighty he would come back to the corrugated shack which was the cookhouse, get a brown enamel bowl of water and proceed to wash his private parts extremely publicly. The other one, I can see now but a name? - Not a chance.
There weren't many of us who were married at that time and those who were tended to be regulars for some reason. Money was certainly tight until the last 6 months unless you flogged cigarettes.
By the way I found you on the photos and would have passed you in the street!

kerby

Hi Fred and Paul, You two are having a right old carry-on about the fifties. Do you not recognise me standing on Fred's right in the picture of the four skiers. The dogs name was Tommy. What about the guys who forgot to tuck their 'jamas' in their socks when 'dancing' to the juke box and giving the local lasses something to laugh about. Fred, you have really started something. Keith

paul croxson

Keith, I laughed reading your bit about the pyjamas. What about the jungle green underpants? I wouldn't have liked to reveal those too often to the local ladies but then I never had the faintest sniff of a chance. I did have a stroll through the park once which was the nearest to sex that i had.
I will now go and look at your rugged handsome features. We are building up quite a bit on 55/56 which is really encouraging. Blow the dust off the rest of your photos Keith

David Thomas

Hi Guys, We seem to be doing very well with stories of the 50’s and 60’s but not so well with later years. Of course we have JR’s stories, but there must be a lot more yarns no one else knows about, if we’re going to have a meaningful record it has to be more than Coxon’s and Hudson’s drunken ramblings. Come on you youngsters, tell us what happened while you were there! All the best, Dave T.

Fred Sanderson

Hello there Kieth (Kerby).
Good to see another of our old crowd putting in his bit. Though you are there I seem to have no recollection of you or not many others come to that, perhaps because I was only there for a short time, I don't think I ever saw bare earth. Crying or Very sad

I don't even remember dancing and I did dance in my youth, as we all did, was this at a local venue?

I should remember a Geordy or are you slumming. Wink

Mind I had a sister that lived in Gateshead most of her life.

I have remembered another little snippit. On the photo of the group on the platform of Braunswiege station I'm sure that the tall lad was a Geordy, this was as we arrived up there, I think.!!

Good to see you anyway.
Fred

paul croxson

I knew about the 7,10 and 12 Guards Divisions, all Armoured from memory and all part of the 3rd shock. I can't remember the 8th. Where did they fit in the grand order of things ( order of battle)
What was 00201? Wasn't that the one that had verbal diarrhoea?
I'll have a grovel round Wikopaedia

paul croxson

found an 8 Guards Army sitting in the Fulda Gap which looks very much in the American zone. Is that the one?

Mike Hudson · History of Langeleben

Dewi, I take exception to your reference RE drunken ramblings. Much to my disgust but a medical must, I am as sober as a Methodist preacher! If I try hard I can taste the beloved Laphroaig on my tongue but then reality says, ' Pillock '. At times such as Birthdays or Anniversaries or similar I confess to the occasional pint of Titanic but that is all and very few and far between. So, what ever my ramblings may be they ain't drunken.
As a hindsight, the last time I was drunk was to celebrate Keith Robinson's promotion to Sgt at Birgelin, Circa 1969, when someone who shall remain nameless, spiked my drinks.
Old Fat Grey Grumpy and Jober as a Sudge -MTH- Twisted Evil

Tom Neal

Hi Folks,
I must have missed the original mention of 8 Guards as over the last few days thinking of 3 Shock and 24 Guards etc I thought why has no one mentioned 8 Guards and it seems as though someone did but looking back I still cannot see where. Age?
Now Mike I thought in the past you said you only reached the rank of Cpl so how did you celebrate the promotion of Keith Robinson?
He was one of my troop who I had put up for Sgt and the day he got promoted we were on morning shift so went straight down to the Sgt's Mess at lunch time where I introduced him to the mess and he got the obligatory rounds etc. I did however make sure that he did not drink much himself and made sure that he left the Mess in a sober state did you then hijack him for another session?
The last I heard from Keith was many years ago when he sent me photographs etc from the time he was part of the Royal Signals who provided the Guard at Buckingham Palace.
I may be wrong but I think it was Val his wife who was I Corps who persuaded him to leave the Army.
If you know where he is would like to get in touch with him again.

paul croxson

Tom,
It was young Mr Hudson who claimed some knowledge - NO, expertise re 8 Guards. I can't recall it at all

Gordon · Re: History of Langeleben

[quote="Mike Hudson"]Dewi, I take exception to your reference RE drunken ramblings. Much to my disgust but a medical must, I am as sober as a Methodist preacher!

Mike

I applaud your sobriety, but your reference to Methodist preachers is a bit out of date. Relatively few of my brother and sister Methodist preachers are teetotal. Like you, we enjoy the odd tipple!

Gordon

kerby

Hi Fred, Sorry to take so long to reply but have had a hectic time as my 94 year old mother in law is not too well at the moment. No I am not a Geordie, I got transferred up here by Courtaulds in 1976 to sort out a computer installation. Ended up marrying a Geordie Lass so had to stay here. Never regreted it. Do not worry, my memory is just the same, cannot remember names from 50+ years ago. Can you remember when you went to Langeleben (not Langeleben), it must have been winter of end 54/begin of 55. Skiing was just across the road from GUARD ROOM, I remember my first time was at midnight under a full moon. Keep in touch, Keith. P.S. I am from Coventry originally, when I did NS 54/6.

paul croxson

Did you have trouble keeping those damned skis on your boots as I did Keith? I went to Langeleben in April 1955 so you seriously outrank me. Can I put your name down as being interested in the re-written history?

paul croxson

If this does get the go-ahead I would be happy to co-ordinate it and might even do what I have promised myself for years to do. Learn the desk top publisher software that I have!

Fred Sanderson

I emailed Keith thinking that perhaps our era was hogging the board Laughing

but his posting does need an answer here.
Yes you are right with the dates end 1954 early 55, in fact I have a date of 21st Dec 1954 written on the photo of four of us on the station platform.
I even seem to remember that I did a guard in the tent called guard room, cold and lonely it was too.

Apart from "Skiing" we used to walk those woods following deer and wild boar tracks and I seem to remember getting to a point where we could see over the border, without looking at a map I think it was Manhiem and tanks on manouvers over there.

paul croxson

I can remember going somehere and seeing the border and immediately attracting the attention of the Grenzpolitzei on the West side and the East German guard on the other. I have a memory of trees with their trunks painted white marking the limit. I recall that it was quite exciting at the time! I wonder if it was the same place.

Mike Hudson · Keefie Robinson

Tom, in one of my moments of clarity, it was I who mentioned my Pet 8 Guards who, for whatever reason I always seemed to get, along with other obscure ones.
With regard to Keith and Val, it must have been circa 69, at Birgelin, as Hilary and I didn't get married until October 68. Both Keith and I were living in 'Private Accomodation'. I have been trying and failed to think of the Scots Cpl Spec Op, a very gentle, quietly spoken guy, who lived in accomodation just along from Keltenstrasse and set back in the fields, that Hilary and I took over. Keith, however, lived a little further along and more into the village.
We had been to a party at Keith and Vals and I honestly thought it was to celebrate his promotion. Knowing my memory, or what remains, (remember, I even think of Shorep as being a decent bloke), it could well have been a Birthday or whatever.
We kept in touch for a while but when no returns came back, presumed they had moved. It was a similar experience with Dave and Penny Stowe,
Geordie Goddard, 'Splash Waterman' and Peter and Lynn Massey (I Corps)
Old Fat Grey Grumpy and in Reminiscence Mode - MTH - Confused

paul croxson

I am continually fascinated by the reluctance, even after 50 years to discuss what we were 'doing'. It is almost as if even a casual reference will bring down the wrath of the secret service upon us and reveal to the "baddies" such secrets that they never for one moment dreamt of us possessing.
May I point out the obvious? The USSR does not exist
Parts of it having broken away are members of NATO and the European Common m,arket
Poland and Hungary whose antics we monitored at Munster and Munchen Gladbach are now allies, colleagues NATO members and so on.
It is not as if the Russians were not fully aware of what we were doing, after all I can recall the time someone (was it me?) looked out of the wagon and asked "who are that lot in the car"? It was the Russian Military Mission who had escaped their escort from the Autobahn. They were not there because they had heard that Frau Grahn did a nice line in egg and chips. And whilst on the subject of line, look what they found when the line to the DF hut was dug up.
No one learns morse any more. Steam radio communication is a dinosaur;
and after all they knewq more about their callsign system than ever we did! Sadly. As they proved when going from B to E type callsigns (I wonder of the Russians used these names) they could throw us off the scent whenever they wanted.
What is it that keeps us tight lipped even amongst ourselves I wonder. We did a good job, particularly the National Servicemen who carried the major burden during the Cold War days and we should be justifiably proud of having done a good job. WShether we helped keep the peace - I doubt it!

paul croxson

The forthcoming re-union is a bit like 'death' is said to be. it concentrates the mind!
Putting my army career (not quite the right word) in perspective, the length of time between my National Service ending and 'now' is 51 years. The time between the end of the Boer War and the commencement of my N.S 53 years. That rather highlights the relevance of my experience to today's conflicts. Can you imagine monitoring transmissions in morse by heliograph but that was how it was done in the Boer War and far longer than that in India (up to 1935).
The time since Langeleben actually closed down as an operational unit (15 years) is not that far from the length of time between the first and second World wars (21 years).
I find this whole subject fascinating. The Roman Empire in England lasted about the time since the English Civil War to today!Does this win the prize for the most boring entry of the day?

Tom Neal

Yes

Just kidding

GerryK · Lost names.

Info for Mike Hudson. The Scots spec-op Cpl you describe, sounds like Angus McCrea. If the Geordie Goddard was named Sid. I,m afraid he passed away many years ago. Lived in Loughborough, just around the corner from the Ambulance station I was based at. So saw quite a bit of him and his bad ticker. Have often wondered about Dave Stow, he made Cpl, the day Bill Clarke and I made Sgt. Did he finish up at GCHQ ?
Gerry Kane 60-63;67.

shorep

AAh,the sanity of Paul prevails,it ain't we is reluctant to talk about wot we were a part of fifty years ago,in my case I cannot recall doing enough of it to interest me and the little I did do left me bewildered.I had to resort to bottles of Carlsberg and Wolters to keep a grip on my sanity,when I realised my tax deductions were paying Mick Hudsons wages.
The only part I played in Anglo German relations was to hit a Mercedes car up the the bumper outside the post office in Hannover with an uncontrollable landrover.With a driving instructor like Gerry Kane and Dave(SGT Rock)Cheney what can one expect.!!!

Tom Neal

Hi Mike,
If the Scots Cpl was Angus MacRae he was ex Gordon Hldrs and SAS before his transfer to the Signals.
Tom

paul croxson

From the age of 13 I was great friends with a chap called Bill Cole, both having Hornby O gauge set ups. Went on to both having Claud Butler bikes and chasing the same girls at the youth club with him invariably winning. ("What's a Youth Club, Grand dad?")
I lost touch with him when I did my NS and, upon my return to the UK, I called at his house "Bill's in the Royal Signals in Germany" Mum said "doing a VERY secret job". "Not in Munchen Gladbach?" I asked. "I'm not allowed to talk about it" she said, "he's a sort of spy". Anyway I got his address 'No.1', and wrote and never heard a whisper. Did anyone know him, a good drummer, by the way?

paul croxson

This is Ascension Day for this subject on the eve of the re-union. Do we want an expanded up-dated history or shall we let it lie like a soggy dog-end in an ash tray at the Deutsches Haus

David Thomas

Hi Paul, A wet dog end in a Dutcheshaus ashtray does has a certain rustic appeal, but when I supported the suggestion of updating the Langelaben history, I must admit I hoped it might rate slightly higher on the literary scale. I suspect your contribution to the Army Museum’s oral history took many hours of preparation and soul searching on your part. Although your input was the product of your individual and unique experience, in the final product it will be a tiny part of huge multifaceted picture of a period of our history of tremendous importance to future generations. The information will be used in ways, we today cannot possible imagine. I want to make a contribution to something that is going to be worthwhile, if it’s not going to be worthwhile, then we will all be wasting our time contributing. Langelaben (as far as we’re concerned) started in the late 40’s and completed in the early 90’s some 40 years, although half of our lifetimes, not a tremendous span of time in the great scheme of things. I believe it must be possible, between the people who post on this site, the written history of the Army such as it is, the local population, and whatever leads into the “other side” we can muster, we must be able to put together a credible account of what is, in all honesty a minute part of military history. I look forward to discussing this with you later this week. Needless to say, I do not treat this subject lightly. All the best. Dave Thomas.

paul croxson

Good, that's a positive start.I am still up for it. Better than this poetry business.
Am I right Dave in recalling the first drink is on you?

jr

Go for it, Paul. I certainly would lend support in this noble endeavour. I shall be arriving on Friday P.M. and will be in the Sportklause that evening if you wish to make contact.
I presume you will make some sort of statement to the many-headed at the AGM on Saturday morning.

paul croxson

Thank you JR
We arrive too from Hannover landing 16.30 then picking up an Avis car we should therefore stagger in to KL 7ish I suppose. What/wher is the Sportklause? Can one eat there? Might sound daft but I rather fancy for old times sake a wurst of some sort. I am just realising just how much German I no longer speak! Apart from the last re-union hardly a word has passed my lips apart from 'bier'

jr

The Sportklause is one of the few remaining traditional boozers in 'Slutter; it stands about fifty yards from the old Schumann's in the direction of Helmstedt; yes the food is good and cheap, I can recommend the Currywurst mit Pommes.

See here http://www.langeleben.btinternet.co.uk/album/ks9799/99sport.jpg

paul croxson

Thanks JR.
my mind is doing a bit of boggling at the thought of a curried sausage with apples. Possibly the other 'pommes' de terre? In my callow youth they had a perfectly good German word for taters. Global eating has obviously hit Konigslutter with a bang.
Despite spending many an hour upstairs in Schumanns entertained by Erika I can't guarantee to find my way there but young Stubbings might well prove to be a bit of a bloodhound. You can expect anything from an ex para

ken vipond

Hi Paul,if all goes to plan and Mr Thomas gets the first round of drinks in,then i think that we must insist on the action being recorded in the G.M. minutes,as that action should definetly go into the history book,Dave buying drinks WOW. best regards from Ken. Razz

Mike Hudson · History of Langeleben

Genitals, I truly hope that you all have a wonderful time in Konigslutter, (sorry once I new how to put the umlaut on but senility overtook). I would truly love to have joined you especially as Dewi ap Thomas is in the Chair but I cannot give up £650 to deliver to Macduff.
Sincereley, enjoy, reminisce and come back the wiser and if anyone meets any ex 225 pre early 68, remember me to them.
Have a wonderful time OFG&G - MTH - Very Happy

paul croxson

Thank you. I am sure that it will be enjoyable. Whilst over there I am going to have a look round for a sense of humour (a second hand one will do) but in the past I've found that there is an acute shortage there too! So - You will have to forgive me if I return, the same miserable old beggar who goes.
I'll leave my PC behind so you will have to manage on your own for a few days.

jr

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about Currywurst:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currywurst
Actually, it should be Currywurst mit Pommes-Frites but the Frites part seems to get dropped in the vernacular.

The Sportklause is located in Lutterstrasse, on foot leave the Market Place heading south after 150 yards the road bends to the left; pass the Herrenmühle on the right, cross the Lutter Beck and the Sportklause is the next building on the right.
By car, follow the signs for Helmstedt, drive up the new by-pass behind the Market Place, and then at the traffic lights (bakery on the corner) turn right towards the town centre. The Sportklause is about 20 yards down on the left.

paul croxson

Thank you Sir, I continue to learn something every day. In true Oxford Dictionary style I would doubt its existence before 11th July 1985 since had it existed I would have been a devotee

David Thomas

Hi Paul and all, having recently emailed Paul with a short contribution, a slight drawback occurs to me, had I posted it onto open forum, others would have read it and commented on it, adding their own tu’penny worth, thus building up a bigger (and better?) picture. For those of you who ever donned a pair of headphones, I was recalling the East German ops who introduced their own procedure ie. AS MN and AS ESSEN, I don’t know if the Russians had any similar deviations? All the Best, Dave T.

paul croxson

Thanks Dave. This is a problem.
What I had intended is to cobble the contributions and edit them into some sort of text. I was then going to circulate it by email to any interested person(s) for criticism additions what have you. Any alternative suggestion?
It is noticeable that there are many yet to make a positive and interesting contribution!

David Thomas

Hi Paul, I can sympathise with your wishes to receive history contributions direct to you via email, thus they are as you say “clean” and you can cut and paste to a suitable section. However many of our more interesting discussions have been sparked off by quite different or chance remarks posted in open forum, so I feel if we don’t let others see what we are contributing, we shall miss out on gems which have been lost in the mists of time and alcohol. May I suggest a compromise, in that we do as Paul suggests, and send him our contributions direct, but then mention somewhere on the forum what we have said. That way we could get the best of both worlds. You never know, the Viper might even be tempted away from the bar long enough to share a few snippets of his illustrious service. All the best, Dave T.

paul croxson

Well Dave, I took your advice and posted the draft stuff on morse training and not a bloody word of comment. I ask myself "!why bother?"

Tom Neal

Paul,
Where did you post the draft on morse?
Tom

paul croxson

TOM I posted it Sunday the 17th on page 3 of living history. It still is there unloved and unread it would appear, It is unfinished and unpolished but I posted it in answer to requests to see it.

David Thomas

Hi Paul, Yes I saw the Morse entry, it looks to be quite comprehensive, but it will need someone like Tom to combine all the elements to keep it interesting and readable. I’ll start putting the RTTY thing together over the next couple of days, then let you have it. Presumably you want us to submit social/lifestyle entries in the same way, you’re not going to trawl the General forum for my previous pearls of wisdom. PS I have posted a request for submissions on the Birglen net. All the best, Dave T.

paul croxson

Thanks Dave
Actually I was going to trawl ALL of the entries and do a grand cut and paste act. There is some good stuff tucked away and I would hate to lose it!

Tom Neal

Hi Paul,
I had read that report before but did not realise it was there for comments to be made.
I think the initial morse training bit via tape recordings backs up more or less what I put in my contribution which I sent to you a few days ago.
Tom

David Thomas

Hi Paul, I told you I had posted a request on the Birgelin site, here is the first response.:-

Jim McDermott Hi Dave, interested to see a move to record the Langeleben experience for posterity. It’s never to late to start putting together a unit history in fact the sooner the better since memories fade. Perhaps you could be guided by the following which I read in the regimental magazine of the old Royal Norfolk Regiment: : EDITORIAL RULE : To qualify for inclusion in the [magazine] there is only one rule - something described must have been said to have happened. The authority is the Editor, British Army Review No 114 Dec 96 who wrote: "If the facts don't fit the legend, print the legend." Good luck
All the best, Dave T.

paul croxson

Thanks Dave for your help.
The bit about editorial control seems to have escaped Hudson and Shorep despite the fact that this was agreed from the outsety

David Thomas

Hi All, another post from BVA:-
Hi Dave, Don't know if we have ever met. In spite of what has been previously written (In the Langeleben History Book), I was the first to go to Langeleben in April 1951, some 56 years ago. There were three of us my self, (then a L/Cpl Spec Op), a Sgt Ray Davies, ( the first Int Corps, voice man), and a Nat Service Driver, Scoucer Phillips. The field, had been as a Transmitter Site belonging to 62 L of C Signal Regiment and used as a beacon station during the Berlin Airlift operation in 1949/50. If you are interested and want a more detailed account please let me know. Got a photo of that day somewhere. Will dig it out if required.
Regards John Francis.

paul croxson

Dave,
This is brilliant. Well done.
This is exactly what I hoped to find. Get him please to spill the beans in as much detail as possible.
Thanks

David Thomas

Hi All, I feel a bit like a relay station, here are a couple more posts from Birgelen. Dave T
David Hopkins
Comments: This is just trivia but I would qualify for the shortest posting ever to Langeleben. On posting from 4 Comms, Oakley after the first EW course I arrived on a Wednesday and found myself in BMH Hannover the following Sunday. Lucklum Crossroads and a collision with a Mercedes Benz ended my career. No complaints as a fantastic journey awaited me. Life can change in a blink of an eye. Dave Hopkins

Jim McDermott
Comments: Dave, you’re right, who knows what awaits us. Anyway more trivia. I never served at Langeleben but knew it as a place on the map in the early 60s that we were reminded about when we went up to patrol the border; word was to be extra careful with comsec for some reason!

paul croxson

Dave,
have you been back to John Francis for a bigger contribution yet? He seems very willing.
Richard Coh=ghlan has sent me some very early photos with some comments. I am trying to get more out of him.
Do you think it worthwhile putting what has been collected and put together on the Virtual Langeleben site aghain to try and encourage more interest?
I have written some stuff on the history of interception since 1914 which I was going to include as I know that many of us never knew how it all fitted together. Should i put that on the site too for approval/criticism?.
It looks as if Mr Hudson is back in our midst, doesn't it?

David Thomas

Hi Paul, and everyone, a particular warm welcome for the return of our prodigal son the Ugly One. I have been back in touch with John Francis, he promises more detail and to look out some old photographs for us. He also says he lent a load to a previous OC of his, and of course never got them back, (they must be on a par with books, you never get those back either). I recommend that for the moment we don’t resend what we have, I suggest people are putting their thoughts together and we shall continue to receive contributions over the coming weeks. May I suggest that we highlight a few areas of interest where we are light on material. For example we don’t seem to have much on the equipment we used, I have fond memories of the RA17 and the RA17L but I hardly used the Edistone receiver at all. I have no idea what trials and tribulations the Voice Ops had, all I remember from that side of the house, was NATO standard coffee being spilt into the old brown teleprinter, and John Knox turning the air blue because he had to clean it days later. What was it like being a DF operator, we’ve heard that they sometimes carried a rifle and 5 rounds of ammunition, but nothing about what it was like stuck in a field for 6 hours, with only a Morse key and Oscilloscope for company. It would be good if someone could find the time to describe an operating position, what equipment they had, how they went about finding stations, what they were looking for, how they identified what they found, and the degree of satisfaction they got if they managed to find another piece of the puzzle. I can well remember, during Warsaw Pact exercises people volunteering to do extra shifts simply to experience the thrill of finding extra units we didn’t previously know existed.
I would be interested to read what you’ve done on the history of interception, purely in the interests of constructive criticism of course. All the best, Dave T.

paul croxson

Stubbings could write about DF in the 50's if only he could write. I'll nag him into doing something. He also did Spec ops in Chinese, went to Korea, malaya and spent 3 months on a US aircraft carrier taking chinese morse for them. Believe it not the little bugger is very interesting.
I like your ideas very much so keep them coming and encourage contributions since what everyone did in the 60's through to 90's is a mystery to me.
I was sent details of a place in Cheshire, Hitler's bunker it is called from memory and they have a load of equipment there including Russian.

shorep

Yo Hanham Hustler,got back to the poor side of Bedminster with yer wheels intact,missing out Hartcliffe!!
Racal 17's are still fetching £250,the exgovt store outside Notts county football ground is the place.
Eddystone sets were aimed at the merchant navy market but could no way match Marcini 'Oceanspan' range of kit supplid by the mighty Chelmsford company.The usual set config was Racal right hand set the heavystone as the left hand set,it was ok to listen to various radio stations pumping out pop music but little else.The yanks used the Racal transceiver that had the same front panel as the 17(almost),in the back of the deuce two's.
Direction finding eqpt was from a certain german manufacturer in the sixties,flashy scope almost like a disco affair,I 'left' a site in Cyprus and 'forgot' the smg and 34 rounds,on CO's orders the atmosphere was rather frosty.I still cannot figure out how a submachine gun and 34 rounds are of more value than a state of the art(for 1964),direction finding system.Perhaps this is what led me to believe that discharge by purchase was a good idea,rather than lie awake at night thinking about it.
Had the enemy 'captured' the submachine gun,it being a sterling,it would have set them back years in their weapons technology,my defence being it was not my 'personal' weapon.!!

paul croxson

Mr Shorep,
How can I put this tactfully? If you want to make a contribution on DF in the 60's I would be delighted to get it and include it. In all fairness I can't include your present offering since I don't understand it. I am not, never was a Sigs person. Can you fill it out and make it both comprhensive and comprehendible? If you can I will happily include it.
You can email it to me at paul.croxson@ntlworld.com.

Mike Hudson · History

The site is called 'Secret Bunker', and is at Hack Green, Nantwich. This their web site

http://www.hackgreen.co.uk

paul croxson

Mr Shorep.
I do hope that you are going to expand on and explain your DF contribution. It will help fill a gap
Thank you

paul croxson

I am going to 'post' a section of the history giving background to the 3rd Shock, the reason mainly for our existence (8 Guards is included for Mr H should he read it) Any comments criticism etc as always greatly welcomed and appreciated. I have to confess willingly to having acquired most of the information from various websites. In researcching this I have been surprised by the structure, not surprisingly after 50 years

shorep

TheDFsection at Langeleben were Mick Ford,Steve Keal,Tich Colley,Mick Green and Chris Moseley,(see photo circa 1966-1969),they hold the dubious record of having one of their number stranded in a ploughed field,a reme wrecker had to rescue him.I think Big Merv Davis is also a good source of DF in Langeleben.

David Thomas

Hi Paul and All, Thanks for the ORBAT. As a bit of a comparison, while I was in 2 DIV (1974-76) We had some 35,000 troops in BAOR, they fitted into 1(BR) Corps, 1 Div, 2 Div (in reserve), 4 Div. Each Division had 2 Brigades (later redesignated Field Forces). 3 Div was the strategic reserve stationed in England with one of it’s role’s to reinforce BAOR in times of trouble. I can’t recall now whether the 35,000 included RAF personnel or not. I can’t imagine that it would have made much difference, what 35,000 were supposed to do against 388,000, I leave you to work out. All the best, Dave T.

paul croxson

Good job you were there Dave. Had the Russians realized that, in your absence, there would have been only 34,999 facing them they could have well crossed the Elbe. Well done Lad!

Any comments on the content? Is it worth including?

David Thomas

Hi Paul, Is it worth including? It was our contribution; but of course it was only part of the story, the Yanks had one or two battalions, even if they were securely locked behind barbed wire. The Germans had a Cadre of full timers backed up by lads doing 18 months conscription. On NATO exercises we even had Dutch and Belgium troops, they were fine provided the Russians attacked Monday to Friday lunchtime, after that, as part timers they went home. If you have a place for it, put it in, otherwise file 13. All the best, Dave T.

paul croxson

Morning Dave
Your entry sums up one of the major problems in writing this history. You quite rightly mention the German contribution to NATO exercises yet, in my time the mid 50's, we were very much the 'Occupying Power'. We knew it AND the Germans knew it and hated it which provided an underlying tension. This is why I have asked from the outset for reminiscences in say the 10 year bands which will also add greatly to the interest. I believe!
I have had a great deal from JR in the way of contributions and help and he unwittingly stumbled into another minefield. That of the NS 'soldier' knowing that he has only 720 days to do (unless the Suez crisis called him back) and the career soldier expecting to serve 22 years (some without the 'option') .

paul croxson

I am still hoping that there are many more contributions in the pipeline.
Stubbings is writing something eventually (but then I am in the position of being able to blackmail him) and there are still some unfulfilled promises.
ALL contributions gratefuuly received, spelling and grammar don't matter a damn, just be interesting PLEASE

kerby · History

Paul, Just a note to let you know I have not forgotten that I owe you one about the NS man in the fifties, but then you know all about it don't you. Promise I will do you something. Keith

paul croxson

Thanks Keith. I look forward to getting the contribution.
No! I don't know all about it but funnily enough I have been putting something together on National Service in general. There were those who were not born whilst NS existed but still served at Langeleben. They would not begin to understand "days to do" would they?
Although we NS worked well with the Regulars there was a certain credibility gap. "You didn't volunteer did you?". The I Corps never had that many Regulars during the NS days.

paul croxson

Keith
As I told you, I have written a bit on National Service for the Living History. Would you do me a great favour and read it and criticise it. More important can you also add your personal memories to it?
If you will do so let me know soonest via paul.croxson@ntlworld.com and I will email it to you
Many thanks

paul croxson

Has anybody got a photo of the upstairs Bar in Schumanns? If they have can I please have a copy.
It may be a sign of old age but what was the name of the delightful lady who ran it? I would hate to think of the number of times she and Renate (?) shoved Jeff Penney (I Corps also) and myself into a taxi and took us back to Camp. This was in 1956.
I heard once that she married and came to live in Loughborough. Any information would be greatly appreciated. She used to call me "meine kleine Englander" not because of my size, a mere 6' 1" but because she used to 'Mother' me

GerryK · Schumanns

Hi Paul, Iam quite sure that there is a photo in the gallery somewhere.
The name you are looking for has got to be Marieanne., unless anyone knows differently.

paul croxson

that doesn't ring ANY bells, that name!
When did your Marianne work there? I,m thinking of 1955/6.
I've got the name Heidi at the back of my mind

GerryK · Schumanns

Sorry Paul this would be 60-61. Renata beit the same one, was running Kleine Schumanns in Western Strasse.

paul croxson

I am getting confused as I had forgotten that there were 2 Schumanns.
The one I used was upstairs and slightly looked down on by quite a lot.The Bar was on the lefthand side and there were seats on the right. Not many Squaddies used it but the 3 tonner used to call there!

John Fortey

Hi, I'm new to this site but have been in contact with Tom Neal and Paul. I was I Corps and was at Langeleben from Feb 57 to June 57. Big Schumanns had 2 bars, the main one downstairs and one used almost exclusively by us squaddies upstairs. Little Schumans was slightly better class, halfway down the mainstreet with a bar and bamboo partitions, which sometimes fell over when walked through by said squaddies. The Deutchers Hous ? was where people partied with their respective girlfriends, or other peoples respected girlfriends, as some were very generous with their affections. To the work. I could only just remember the morse code, but so much was given away by procedure, how our friends operated, who called who, the frequencies used and in what order, and very importantly, the operators ear. I was attached to A Watch and at one time we had a very small but unidentified network butting in on our drinking time. Having worked most of the time at Birgelen I had been involved in such networks. Without identified callsigns or frequency, although the frequency was very close to a network in Noth Germany, it looked like one of these networks. Eggy Beaver( I can't remember his name) and Colin Davidson, very good ops, said, it wasn't. We argued for a number of days until we cracked the callsigns, using previous Nov keys. I thought I was right but they still said , no. Then we caught the network working at the same time as the mystery one. The ops ear had proved itself, they were right. Later identified as a shadow practice network.
I'm not quite sure of what you want on this site but my memories are more of the "social" side of Langeleben.

paul croxson

Good afternoon John and welcome to our 'umble abode. Thanks for clarifying upstairs Schumanns' for me. All the time that I spent there yet could not completely recall it.
For me, it was my distribution point for cigarettes, although getting a few pfennigs less there was never any hassle and if it wasn't safe to produce them your were soon given the 'nod'. It was also the meeting place for a number of the Boarder Crossers who made a good living at it smuggling both ways - goods and people.
I hope that you get all of those photos that you have been sending onto the official album - they are so good!
I wouldn't be surprised if your arrival provokes a response from Gordon too, he has been ominously quiet.
As far as the 'Living History ' is concerned it is really what you want to write about Langeleben, the I Corps, training and what we were supposed to be doing day in and day out! We have mentioned such things as E type callsigns and B sticks and the world has not collapsed around us. Not surprising as MOrse Code has disappeared fro the Un iverse except for a few fanatics. I vcan let you see what others (and I) have written but ithas to be personal . Characters you came across. Did your Service lead to anything of interest after demob? Heck I am almost writing it for you.
The Living HIstory entries which are sticky are for viewing but not for alteration only comment and addition.
As I said ... Welcome!

Tom Neal

Hi John,
Nice to hear from you again as it has been a while since we were in contact directly. Eggy was Dave Beavers a good friend of myself and Jeff Pearce. Most of the photos I have on this site were taken at upstairs Schumans and although I went downstairs a couple of times we were never welcome there.
Tom

John Fortey

Type B and E callsigns. The B were in use when I first went to Birgelen. they were 3 letter callsigns and we were equiped with wooden slide rules to identfy them. I believe we could forcast who would call who 3 months in advance. Soon after, probably about Aug or Sept 55, our friends changed to 4 letter callsigns, E, which was a bit mean of them as it took about 2 months to sort them out. After that we had to wait for the beginning of each month, about 2 hours into it, before we understood them and then we could only forcast for that month. It made more work all round which was not very considerate.

Tom Neal

Not sure about the date when E Type calls came in but B Type were definately still being used mid year in 56. When you entered the letters onto the B Stick you then read off a number which gave the book of the callsign and even now I can remember that 17 and 21 were two of the required books that we covered.
Tom

paul croxson

Weren't B type alpha - numerics?
When I went to Langeleben in Apr/May 1955 E types were well under way and B types were just for the minor networks.
Something happened after I left, John, if you could forecast a month ahead, Every night we had a scramble to get those 10 numbers in place to break the callsign system. Having seven would guarantee the numbers were correct and we would rush our findings off to the Regt and the Americans. I never let them beat me! I had some damned good Ops and Bob Wells. What more did one want? I loved that shift even though it ruined one's drinking!

Tom Neal

Yes, B Types were Alpha Numeric

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Keefie Robinson

Lost names.

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