| Archive for Langeleben Internet forum for Langeleben Reunion Members. |
| paul croxson |
Living History of Langelebenmay I start by asking that this 'subject' is the only one dealt with. No disappearing down each and every avenue. PLEASEThe subject of producing what I have called "The Living History of Langeleben" was brought up at the AGM and received a warm reception. There was some caution; some members still concerned about the secret nature of what they had done. May I assure everyone that we did nothing that the Soviets were not fully aware of. They may not have called them 'E type or B type callsigns' but they certainly knew more than we did about them! What I want is contributions from as many memebers as possible. This will then end up in a document -even a book which can be deposited at the Imperial War Museum. It will tell future generations what the Cold War meant to National Servicemen originally and then Regular soldiers. I am posting this to let those who did not attend the reunion know that the project has received the formal go ahead and I will be writing more about the suggested structure and content soon. In the meantime, get those memories dusted down keyboards clicking even pens writing. The number of additional photographs that appeared last week was amazing and even more are promised. Have you dug out your's yet? It could be very good. It certainly will be unique! |
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| paul croxson |
I have been giving this some thought and unless told otherwise I feel that the forum is not the right place to collect and collate all the information that I hope will flood in.
I think the way to do this is to set up a group and send everything via email. It should then be easy to save everything as 'word' documents or spreadsheets or phootos. I fhis is acceptable I would love to receive the email address (and names) of anyone who is interested in participating. It would also be of immense help if you could mention the period(s) when you served at Langeleben and what was your job or speciality. I know a bit about the I. Corps in the 50's and Langeleben then too otherwise I know nothing outside of JR's little book. But I will learn given the chance! |
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| Gordon |
Paul
I agree with you that the forum is not suitable as a mail-box for contributions. But do you think we could keep this Topic open as a place to discuss editorial questions? Like, for example: Is there a maximum permissible length? Do you want certain basic information about each contributor to be submitted in the same way? How relevant is pre-Langeleben and post-Langeleben experience? How relevant is what happened to us after demob? There will no doubt be others. I think all contributors should agree (as I readily do) that the editor's word is final, and not complain when their beautifully crafted prose (or poetry) is, for editorial reasons, cut down to size. You can remind me of that, Paul, when I complain! Gordon |
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| paul croxson |
Hello Gordon
Of course we should keep this open. If there is just the one contributor then length is arbitrary, I suppose. Anonymity will be preserved if wished. JR went for the initial option whereas Geoffrey Elliott went for the whole hog Pre and post Langeleben if relevant I believe to be quite important. How we were drawn in to the foul plot .... did we get any benefit post discharge etc.. Wow, am I editor? |
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| paul croxson |
I have received my first contribution and it is exactly what I am hoping for. He's been a bit too modest for my liking though!
F.W. Winterbottom's book 'The Ultra Secret' the first on the subect was first published in 1974 some twenty years after Ultra had done its job. The main task of the book was to promote the importance was to promote the writer. He was not the best man to explain the background and nor have many of the dozens of books which have followed. I cannot recall any book delving into the mysteries of callsigns their importance and their recovery. NOTHING ABOUT FREQUENCIES. We all know that if you write a letter and leave off the name and address of both the recipient and the sender it is of little or no value. I have never seen any mention of radio networks and their importance in estblishing the Order of Battle so loved by military intelligence. Frankly, it is because of the reticence of our pre-decessors that this has not been explored and recorded and I don't want this to go unrecorded. To read the literature you would think that Ultra was broken due entirely to the genius of some Oxford and Cambridge geniuses. Let's face it, without someone having either obtained or broken the code book it would have been of damn all use. How often in OUR experience have we been saved by some Op Spec or Spec Op recognising the 'hand' of an operator - someone who he will never meet but know so well. Time and time again operator errors picked up by humble chaps like us (well you) were the key to a breakthrough. Who remembers the appalling nightmare when they went over to 'E' type callsigns. One blank page after another. That's worth a chapter on it's own. Did it ever happen again? Would anyone volunteer to write about the 'Q' code as used by the Russkies? QSA imi is probably about my limit but I bet that Tom could write a chapter on this alone. I would love it if he did. Can you see the direction in which I want to take this project? It is the potential personal nature that is so important. How did you all learn morse for example? I know Nobby Clarke had a headstart but what about the rest of you? |
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| Fred Sanderson |
My introduction to the Morse Code was of course Catterick.
I did quiet well as a trainee winning a prize of a fountain pen and propelling pencil, I mucked it up though, so suprised was I that I marched up to the front to collect it and saluted, without my beret on, ohh I'll never forget, no wonder I never got promotion. Yes some did have a start, Merchant Marine rings a bell and did they learn Morse Code in the scouts?. lol. Now which Nobby Clarke would that be Paul, there was one just in front of me but I only knew him at Nordholtz, he left just as I arrived, I took over his girlfriend, just a platonic friendship, honest. |
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| paul croxson |
I am getting the contributions that I had hoped for. Well done those who have made a contribution and those who are about to do so.
In general terms give briefly but fully your service details. When you served at Langeleben and the length of time. What precisely was your job. If an NCO were you responsible for any particular watch. I think we need details of things that will not happen again. For example National Service. Pre I Corps experience, and dare I raise the subject of what we called 'Boy soldiers'. This is something the I Corps knew nothing about and as far as I know has disappeared completely. If I remember correctly Bob Wells came through this route and his career was pretty good and certainly very long. (I am working on your photos now Bob. XXX) Don't be so shy in writing, let me decide what is boring. Can anyone throw any light on the strike that Fred sanderson has recalled? He is a bit vague re the background. There vwere also Ops who looked after teleprinter transmissions that spewed out vast amounts of tape. Dave Rackliffe of the I Corps used to go round looking extremely important and looking at all those holes as if he could read them. (perhaps he could! He ended up as a Chief detective Superintendant in the Kent Police and, in a Special Branch capacity, actually went back to the I Corps Depot at Ashford to lecture. Small world!The word "Baudot" suddenly dredges itself from my memory. I've just looked it up on Wikopaedia and so I am slightly the wiser. Who is going to volunteer to write on how you learned morse. I nreckon Nobby Clarke could do a damned good job of this! If you send to my direct email address it will make life much easier. It is paul.croxson@ntlworld.com. Does anyone know how to turn a 'forum entry' into a word document????? |
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| Gordon |
Paul
I've just selected, copied and pasted your last post into a blank Word document. Seemed to work OK. Gordon |
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| Mike Hudson |
Instant LangelebenPaul, I caught your comment on the 'Does anyone remember the I Corps' post. Please appreciate that my total knowledge of ow't is 225 Signal Squadron and 13 Sigs. There are a lot of ex 225 who contribute to the 225 Scharfoldendorf site who do not appear on this site and equally the same from Birgelin. Have a look at the 225 Scharf site and view the photo album. Be warned, however, do not go onto the 'Guest Book' as it is highly infected with RU. porn and viagra sites. I will give you my 'log on and password' off line if you wish to leave a message. You can,however, get the Photo Album just by clicking on to the following and then follow directionshttp://www.mardavhal.fsnet.co.uk Ow'd Phart Grey Grumpy AND bound to be summat or other - MTH -    
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| shorep |
  The GNT machines used in the telecoms industry used punched tape and the number of characters were calculated in 'bauds per minute',this is a printer transmission rate which roughly equates to WPM or words per minute.
On merchant ships the radio officer would punch up the tape and when comms were established the GNT would be switched on and the traffic sent,maybe ten or twenty at a time before 'QSL',or agree how many to receive before acknowledge. When russkie ops were going well they would each send a letter of the 'Q' code taking it in turns making direction finding difficult,their merchant navy ops were even slicker.(the cuban crisis is the evidence of this).All done with the dreaded bug key,horizontal keying. |
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| paul croxson |
Mike, thank you.
How about you advertising what I am trying to do on that website for me? Too many Viagra ads will just go to remind me what I lost when the prostatiitis took root Mr Shorep. Thank you, that's a start. So who were we monitoring using the teleprinters than? As Oliver Twist said MORE!!!!!! Is the key you refer to what we called in the good old days a "side swiper"? |
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| shorep |
 Various types of bug keys or side swipes,especially with units in the field as I am led to believe,strapped to the thigh of course as all morse keys would be.
As to learning morse it is worth oting,Tom will know more,it took nine months or so to train a spec op,but the russkies were dealing with lads just off the farm and only in for a year or so.The shortcut training involved deviding the morse code into opposites,dash,and dot,eg.a is the opposite of n,b to v and so on,e,i,s,h,5 all dots,t,m,o,so trainees were soon up to twelve words per minute.This is the first 'barrier'and with constant practice speed increase easily to the twenties and beyond. Printers(like faximile)can be easily be identified by the lilting rattle with a distintive mark and space transmission method.Various organisations 'went to printer'just to get rid of large amounts of traffic,the International link communication systems in the middle east(ILC).The modern form of telegram,date time originator addressee and the subject etc and body of message,just like a radio ops work aboard ship.Many from 9pigs will remeber boring hours listening to these for originators like 'odessa silint night etc,have I said too much??? |
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| Mike Hudson |
Living History of LangelebenPaul, I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. I am a nosey old git and would like to read what others have to say on t'other hand I appreciate what you say re getting info re your e-mail address.I joined the Royal Signals in 1963, intending to be a Radio Op, as I had been in the communications section of my local Civil Defence Corps, which I absolutely loved. It was actually good training for the Army, as a certain sense of discipline and personal pride was instilled. Catterick, 11 Sigs I have already covered in a previouspost to you but I will still reiterate that out of the youth came the man. Then came 'The Job Interviews'. Basically you were given an intelligence and aptitude test, somewhat on a par with Mensa, (which incidentally I am a member of) but on a lesser scale. The powers that be decided, in their infinite wisdom, that I should become a Special Operator and sent me off to Garats Hey. I was happy as it was only about 60 miles from home, as t'was then. 224 Sigs, after 11 Sigs was heaven, my Instructor was a Scottish Cpl named Rab Aitken and he was GOOD. He cared, about the job, about people and so got the best out of them. So, as an A3 Spec Op, I was detailed for 225 Signal Squadron, Scharfoldendorf and moved with them in 1967 to Langeleben. You have to understand that Scharfoldendorf was THE posting, although I did not know it at the time. WO2 Gobby Blease was the SSM and that is the worst I can say about it and he wasn't all that bad. Come the move to Langeleben and there were not many who were happy to go, me being one. Scharfoldendorf was a unique posting and 'C' Troop was more like a family. However, came the day and off we went and arrived at Butlins. Greatcoats, not Redcoats and billets not barrack rooms. A proper bed, not a metal monster, with a bedhead that pulled down and gave access to a personal items storage area. Individual lighting and even a carpet on the floor. The only fault in the whole place was that Marlene had yet ot come to the NAAFI. Langeleben was now 225 Signal Squadron, the BELL was hung and the boys were now in town. Sorry Paul, phone has rung and I've got to do run to Presteigne, let me know if you want me to continue and if so to which address. Old Fat Grey Grumpy and where's me Sat Nav - MTH -  
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| shorep |
Right Croxson,now you started sumfink,go to KLOTH.net and look in radio/Qcodes,all the codes pertaining to military use/merchant navy use.Yer QSA/B are,as you say signal reports,QSB QSD are name,vessel etc.enjoy,or delagete the Q code to a willing hand.Your idea of having various people compiling various sections sounds about right,Hudson has started the trade selection process and doing well,enjoy!!!
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| paul croxson |
Something is wrong. I am beginning to understand Mr Shorep.
GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is tyhis a volunteering? If so Yes Please! 1000 words on the Q code plerase. |
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| paul croxson |
I am pretty confident that it going to start coming together.
The later stages of Langeleben and what they did are a complete mystery to me. It may well be that there are some areas where a degree of sensitivity are still required - I just don't know. In reply to Mr Hudson's complaint. What I hope to do is to start compiling everything as a word document which I would then email to all thoise who registered their interest. This would I hope generate COMPLAINTS ALTERARIONS ADDITIONS PERHAPS SOME PRAISE. If anyone has a better idea speak up. I am always open to suggestions |
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| paul croxson |
If you are not happy with the concept of sending stuff to me by email, as someone has noticed it has the virtue of it reaching me unscathed and without developing 270 responses all arguing the point. When I put it together ... then you can shout at me and say "what a load of rubbish", then we will correct it. Is that Ok Mr H? | ||
| Mike Hudson |
Living History of LangelebenPaul, worry not, it happens to the best of us. Forgive me, I don't know if you are a parent but if you are it's a similar phase. Mothers seem to understand the Goo goo gah gah that proliferate from the mouths of their offspring. Fathers take a little longer, presumably as they have less to do with the Rug Rat(s). Then, all of a sudden the Goo goo etc becomes Gibberish, which finally becomes Shorepese and you find you understand, or at least can make sense? of what is uttered.Seriously, apart from Tom Neale I think Pete Shoreland may prove to be a fount of knowledge to you. Incidentally, unless I am wrong, as normal, the Bug Key was the old 'Up and Down' mode, the 'Side Swiper' came later, a present from the Yanks I think. Never managed to master it, the DT's and Michael Parkinson just left me sending stutter V's |
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| Mike Hudson |
Living History of LangelebenPaul, forgive me but what complaint? That will teach me to compose a message, leave it half done and then finish it, expecting everything to be the same.Somewhere in your past posts I think you asked if it was possible to identify a particular operator (Warsaw Pact) from the way he sent, The answer is definitely YES. Many were conventional but there were a goodly few that were recognisable by their characteristics. This could be anything from the way, or even the number of 'Stutter V's they sent, to their actual transmission techniques. Think of it as listening to a voice, you can easily recognise one from another and so it was with them. Equally, when they sent QST and went into voice or plain text, if you were familiar with the group you could recognise the operator. In a way they almost became friends, not quite as we never knew them but they were still 'Familiars'. In the same way you could listen to RM.. whatever and distinguish one operator from another by his particular transmission characteristics. Admittedley this was not the normal, more the exception but the longer you perceived with a particular group, the more you recognised their techniques, whether it be be voice or morse. Old Fat Grey Grumpy and HATE Tractors - MTH - 
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| paul croxson |
Mike, the complaint was not from you!!! Others have a whinge or make constructive suggestions.
Develop the last bit, please It is spot on. Think more of it as a newspapaer article ... what made them recognisable etc., etc., etc, Mr Shoreland is being very helpful but not a murmour4 from young Tom as yet. I am wonderinmg if it is the security aspect that is worrying him, Perhaps this will evince a rteply of some sort or other from him. Can Mrs Tom contribute on behalf of the women I Corps staff. It is certainly worthy of remark as it nwas a completely new direction. When was it? Don't forget ... its the day to daay stuff, the mundane (at least to you\0 that will make this a worthwhile project. |
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| jr |
Re: Living History of Langeleben
The official name for this was MOCA (Morse Operator Characteristic Analysis). And don't forget RFP (Radio Finger Printing). See here: http://findarticles.com/p/article...qa3926/is_199901/ai_n8847244/pg_9 |
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| paul croxson |
thanks JR. Another early start? | ||
| jr |
Yes, it's been very hot and muggy the last week, I find I work better starting work early when it's still fairly cool and finishing early, something I learnt in Cyprus.
You mentioned boy soldiers somewhere. When I arrived at Ashford in 1973 there were two Intelligence Corps ex-boys who joined our squad at the end of basic training. They had joined the Corps at 15 and had been trained at the RAOC Apprentices College at Blackdown. There they had learnt basic office procedures and map marking, in addition to the usual apprentice stuff. Sorry to say neither of them stayed with the Corps, in fact both transferred out to the RMP! I never heard of any others, so I presume the scheme was discontinued as a waste of time & money. |
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| kerby |
Paul, Just a quick note to let you know I haven't forgotten you and the history. Hope you had a good time at K/S. I am off to Cyprus next week and when I get back I will get down to doing something for you. Good luck, Keith (23010244) | ||
| Mike Hudson |
HistoryPaul, greetings from the Oatcake County. The length of time for keeping 'Shtum' and not visiting a Warsaw Pact company was, I believe, 25 Years, so I ran out on 01/04/1996.You could indentify certain operators purely by the characteristics they used. The way they sent, even the speed they sent if other things also came into play. This proved useful in the build up to the invasion of Czechoslovakia, when certain operators who you knew were with 'A' suddenly came to light elsewhere. For the actual invasion, in August '68 I was at 13 Sigs but the build up to it was noticeable in early '68 when I was still at Langeleben. Unknown ' sattelite' groups suddenly started to appear and QST or QST IMI (go to speech or can I go to speech) became more prevalent. Like most of my peers, my knowledge of Russian was limited to numbers and certain phrases so basically I knew now't of what was said. We relied on feed back from your lot for that. What we could say, however, is that Ivan Ivanovitch, if recogniseable form his morse, was the speaker. Don't get the idea that this was a regular thing, it wasn't uncommon but certainly not a daily event. The vast percentage of time was spent transcribing page after page of 5 digit text or just routine comms. Sugar, hold on, Paul sorry, got a phone call, AGAIN, 7788 - MTH -
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| Tom Neal |
Hello Paul and others,
I think Pete could probably tell you more about Q Codes than I could with his Merchant Navy background as well as the army. There were no females serving at Langeleben when I was there so I am afraid that is out also but I will be putting something together for you as soon as I can. Tom |
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| shorep |
 Tom,you have me all wrong,but you with your extensive instructor experience will be better able to put the teaching of morse code into focus.
I have this view that 'they'or 'them',were fresh orf daddies farm,whatever army they were in,yet somebody taught them morse code in a very short time.They had no problem knocking out endless dahdits for many a long hour at a very nifty rate.Alright,we used to swear,rant and rave about the method,but our TG ops had to have an eight month course,and spec op was longer.So,what was their secret beyond 'opposites' training? . Training radio ops for the Ghana shipping lines to PMG 2 took close on a year,but most british ships had PMG2 ops who were not even seventeen,the Oriana had a radio op who was 16 and seven months,so what was the secret tuition methods.It would not be feasible to spend a third of the conscripts time just in training,not to mention trining to work out the day/night frequencies. |
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| Mike Hudson |
HistoryPaul, can I make a suggestion? There was a Langeleben before 225 Sigs, which I think you have a reasonable cover of and a 225 Sigs before Langeleben, which I think you may need more feedback on. More that is than Pete Shoreland and myself.There was also more to Langeleben than I Corps and Spec Ops. There were the other Royal Signals, Drivers, Clerks, TG Ops, Technicians et al, REME. RAOC, RAPC, AND equally important, the Civilians, Marlene, the Harlow Hottie being a prime example. Get P Horse off his Morse / Merchant Navy trip and onto the day to day stuff and a plethora of info will be forthcoming. Old Fat Grey Grumpy and Nurse, me catheter - MTH -
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| paul croxson |
May I say a sicere thank you for ALL the information that is now FLOODING in. Make sure you put dates on your contributions as to when served. If you can limit the contributions to the 'book' stuff it will save my editing arm a lot of work, cutting and pasting like mad!!!!!! | ||
| shorep |
 Don't forget one part paste and eight parts water or is it not 'that' sort of pasting,watch how you cut the pattern to match,I am not being much help am i???
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| paul croxson |
Mike I am delighted for anything but any entries should be 'clean' of what I could unkindly call 'rubbish' and so have to resort to far too much cutting and pasting and altering.
Sorry, the concept was 'Langeleben' and Langeleben it will stay unless the members ordain it otherwise. I await to hear on this point, with my editorial hat on |
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| Mike Hudson |
Living History of LangelebenPaul, I think you misunderstood my intention. What I meant is that people who were posted to Langeleben came from and went to many other postings. A lot would have been Spec Ops off to anywhere from Bahrain to Birgelin, to Berlin, others would have been your colleagues. However, what about the RAPC, RAOC, RAMC, ACC, REME et al, plus of course the Civilians that were employed by either the camp or thwe NAAFI.I think that this is going to be a far bigger project than you initially envisaged if it is to cover ALL of those who served, or worked at Langeleben. Now, with due deference to P Horse and his paste recipe, can I suggest that you tell him that SIZE isn't everything? Ow'd Fat Grey Grumpy and wish I could do more - MTH -
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| sjvaughan |
bit of info for the history if relevantHi Paul, first time on here so I hope this gets to you.ref the boy soldiers. I went to Harrogate Army Apprentices College, as part of intake 70C, this denotes that I arrived for my two years training in the last third of the year, the A and B intakes being the other two. At the time it was a mass production machine for operators of all kinds and for radio technicians. Harsh discipline and high physical standards, opportunities for educational achievements, all pursued ardently with the enthusiasm that only 15 - 17 year old lads can muster. Should you do well in the morse side of training in the first year you were selected to join the "special " training in the second. This meant you were whisked away from the mainstream of radio operators, and totally brainwashed in the reception of high speed morse. You were also taught a new skill, that of transcription, the art of transferring the morse intercepted, onto the Imperial typewriter. Having learnt my morse code at an early age from my Dan Dare communications station, the first year was a snip ! There you are lads, that was where the system went wrong and let me in !! After passing your tests, you would graduate as an A3 Special Telegraphist, then go on to further training at Garats Hay Loughborough, where you would be upgraded to A2, and learn the basics of analysis. You would then join you first manservice regiment, then it was 13 or 9 Signals Regiments, and work as a probational A2 Special Telegraphist. Should you not muck up, you would receive your A2 after six months, (maybe 12-bit unsure), of course that meant mixing it with the Catterick commandos - but hey nothings perfect !!! Is that the sort of thing youre after Paul ?? cheers mate -- Farmer Vaughan |
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| paul croxson |
No, I did not misunderstand. The concept is quite clear - it was to have served in Langeleben and only Langeleben. What happened before or after is irrelevant except in the matter of training which is already being delat with at great length. Morse training is coming along brilliantly, we have a contribution from a linguist on his training and this will be developed. Additionally, what does interest me is what if anything followed on from what happened DIRECTLY at Langeleben. My career was certainly re-directed. I am sure that JR's life was completely re-directed but have not asked. We won't be alone I am sure. Marrying local girls is a massive area where we need contributions. The VW factory. How many ended up there? Is there a staff magazine that could help us?
All the peripherals that you mention are of interest of course and contributions would be welcome, they did support the core activity but I personally have met none of them post-Langeleben. An RAPC chap contributed considerably to JR's book I believe. I think there is a driver amonst us but was he Signals or RASC? I have often wondered what happened to Robinson the driver with the criminal record; Scouse the Cook and wouldn't it be good if more commissioned ranks from the 'early days' joined us. I can never make it clear enough that that there was more than one "Langeleben" and this is something that I have to convey. Unless you served there you can have no idea of the deprivation and squalor in which we served in the mid 50's. I've just received a couple of photos from that time and I am still shaken by the mess in which we lived. Talk of NAAFI girls and swimming pools and cinemas is utterly irrelevant but they have their place and will be dealt with . AS I did not know of them I am absolutely in everyone else's hands. RAOC, RAMC and REME did not exist for me and my time at the Camp. This is as I feared. I wanted to keep contributions to go into the history to an email so, can we keep it this way? If not compiling and editing the 'book' is going to be an absolute nightmare. Can we keep the witty remarks to a minimum in this section? There is plenty of room elsewhere! MY EMAIL ADDRESS FOR CONTRIBUTIONS IS paul.croxson@ntlworld.com Thanks for understanding. |
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| paul croxson |
Mr 'Farmer' it's SPOT ON. Just what I wanted. It is recording something that won't be known to this generation. Write on Mate!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Mike Hudson |
HistoryPaul, I think I might have more success if I speak like Shorep. What I am saying is, that if you want a comprehensive History of those who served at Langeleben, then you need more than the odd remeniscences of the few who contribute to this forum.The Signals, were the majority but the other Corps were an integral part of the camp. Without the ACC you would have starved, without the RAPC you would not have been paid. Whils these few may not have courted the glamour(?) they were a part of the machinery that ran Langeleben and included in this has to be the Civilian employees. Would it not be worthwhile to draft a standard letter or note, explaining the purpose of your book and send it to the other Corps that had members at Langelen during it's time? Appreciating that this will take time, perhaps one of members who has a little spare time could volunteer to do this on your behalf. You know my position, working full time for myself, precludes me from offering my services but there are others. Reading this back, please don't think I am being critical or having a go at you. I am not, what I hope I am trying to be is constructive. TBN, perhaps you could drop a word onto the Birgelin Vets site, if you haven't already? Old Fat Grey Grumpy and still digging - MTH -
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| David Thomas |
Hi Mike, Re posting a note/request on the BVA site, may I suggest that it would be better coming from someone like Tom, or Bob Alum, someone who has a bit of standing with the people who read it. I have a feeling that if Paul or me (I had considered posting a note myself) asked for contributions, may of the readers would think to themselves, who the hell is this upstart trying to garner information, whereas, if Tom or Bob or even your good self asked for help, you might get a more sympathetic response. All the best, Dave T. | ||
| paul croxson |
Mike
If I had relied on the ACC I WOULD have starved. If I had relied on the Pay Corps for my money times would be very hard, cigarettes kept me afloat. I think that I think that you mean well but you are not realistic. Those you mention are not members of the Langeleben group apart from one or two who can freely contribute without my permission. (I wish they would, Tales from Driver B of nights outside the Deutscheshaus etc.. ) Many others have never joined and so won't read the Forum so won't know what is going on. It's hard enough getting contributions from the active members! Less time harping and more time contributing would be preferred |
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| derek fowler |
Dave,
Glad to see you made it back from the reunion in one piece. Re BVA, I think you will find that a lot of folk from this site also read/subscribe to the BVA, so a note to them probably wouldn't garner any more information than is already flooding in. |
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| paul croxson |
Dave I've been very busy sticking all the bits together. More please on RTTY as you offered particularly what it means!
If you like I can email the section that I am putting together on morse. I need some guidance on what is missing but it is coming on well. Let me have an email address. |
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| paul croxson |
Spec Ops were trained to send morse on a straight morse key up to 12 wpm – the only time I saw this skill being used was on the DF net at 13 Sigs. These were replaced by
printer circa 1970. DF operators at 13 could use a bug key, but only after displaying competence. A straight morse key – up and down movement to create letters/code required. A paddle morse key – can be thought of as two straight keys side by side with movement being horizontal rather than vertical. Dots and dashes could be sent using either side, depending upon morse character required. A bug key – hold key to the left sends continuous dots, but dashes still had to be sent individually by moving key to right. Speed of dots was governed by adjusting the circular weight seen here at left end of main spindle. There are bugs with fully automatic dashes as well as dots. Radio Fingerprinting (RFP) is still in use, but to the best of my knowledge was never used at Langeleben. You are no doubt aware of the ability of ops to recognize the ‘fist’, or keying characteristics, of various operators due to their familiarity of cover, a skill particularly useful when callsign/procedure keys had changed and nets were identified by these characteristics, or link activity. There was speculation that ‘Bloc’ operators were using a machine based on a typewriter for sending morse, which was why some of them were so fast and so perfect. I never heard of anything further to substantiate this rumour. Morse at Garats Hay was taught by a form of brain washing. It began by listening to a tape which listed a number of phonetic characters followed by the sound of the code that represented it eg ‘alpha’ dit dah (repeated twice) ‘bravo’ dah dit dit dit (repeated twice) This was repeated for about 5 letters, then we were given a run of the morse characters only, sent randomly at about 5 words per minute in blocks of 5, and only 20 blocks were sent. The next 5 characters were then given followed by the same exercise above, then we were given a run of the 10 characters sent randomly, only this time it would be for 40 blocks. This continued until all letters were being sent random order in 5 letter blocks for an interminable length of time (especially if you were a smoker). If the instructor was feeling liverish then the break came at the end of the lesson (40 mins), however double lessons were not uncommon. The same procedure was carried out to learn figures. Speeds were increased weekly by either 1 or 2 wpm, with tests being conducted every Friday, when those ops less proficient were either back squadded, or sent back to Catterick to be given another trade. The test was split into three parts – blocks, plain language and figures and scores had to be less than 10 mistakes in each part before you were allowed to progress to faster speeds. It was recognized that if you could reach 12 wpm (classed as a barrier exam) then you would have few problems reaching far higher speeds. To pass out as an A3 Spec Op you had to show ability to read morse at 18-20-18 in the three parts. I have been on posts where 30wpm was the minimum requirement – a speed relatively easy to reach when Bob Wells is standing over you like the Wrath of God. Typewriters were introduced in the late 60’s which made transcription much easier, and higher speeds more attainable. Occasionally we were given tapes where letters and figures were mixed up – this was called ‘psycho’ and I’ve come across nets where this was used (slowly thankfully). . Picking up on Mike’s ability to recognise some WP operators with whom he had become familiar; I spent much of my time listening in to the Germans both the Police and the Boarder Guards. Their procedures tended to be less secure than the Russians, and they would sometimes introduce their own idiosyncrasies. A fairly common one was AS MN (wait a minute). Another was .- … . … … . -. Which obviously came out as a stream of dots with two dashes, and translated as AS ESSEN, it was always sent between seven and eight in the evening by a particular subordinate station to it’s control, which meant after the monthly call sign change we had a pretty good indication of who we were listening to; and helped to build up the new picture. I can probably draft something on RTTY if no one else picks it up. All the Best, Dave. As for learning morse, it took nine months or so to train an Op. spec./ spec op. but the Russkies were dealing with lads just off the farm and only in for a year or so. The shortcut training involved dividing the morse code into opposites; dash and dot, e.g. ‘a’ is the opposite of ‘n’ ‘b’ to ‘v’ and so on, e,i,s,h,5 all dots, t,m,o, so trainees were soon up to twelve words per minute. This is the first 'barrier' and with constant practice speed increased easily to the twenties and beyond. Fred Sanderson told of his introduction to the Morse Code was of course at Catterick. ‘I did quite well as a trainee winning a prize of a fountain pen and propelling pencil, I mucked it up though, so surprised was I that I marched up to the front to collect the prize and saluted without my beret on. Oh I'll never forget that; no wonder I never got promotion. Yes some did have a start; the Merchant Marine rings a bell and did some of them learn Morse Code in the scouts? I asked if it was possible to identify a particular operator (Warsaw Pact) from the way he sent, the answer was definitely “YES”. Many were conventional but there were a goodly few that were recognisable by their characteristics. This could be anything from the way, or even the number of 'Stutter V's they sent, to their actual transmission techniques.’Think of it as listening to a voice’, I was told, ‘you can easily recognise one from another and so it was with their morse transmissions’. ‘Equally, when they sent QST and went into voice or plain text, if you were familiar with the group you could recognise the operator. In a way they almost became friends, not quite as we never knew them but they were still ‘familiars’. ‘In the same way you could listen to RM.. what have you and distinguish one operator from another by his particular transmission characteristics. Admittedly this was not the normal, more the exception but the longer you persevered with a particular group, the more you recognised their techniques, whether it be be voice or morse’ The official name for this was MOCA (Morse Operator Characteristic Analysis). And don't forget RFP (Radio Finger Printing). See here: http://findarticles.com/p/article...qa3926/is_199901/ai_n8847244/pg_9 I also remembered that there was in the mid-fifties some sort of surveillance on teleprinter traffic. As far as the I. Corps input was concerned at that time Dave Rackliffe played it very close to his chest. I do though remember hime passing the tape through his fingers as if he recognized every single hole – but he was a bit like that! There were three Signals Ops and one of them was called Mears. I met up with him a few years later in Piccadilly in Police uniform, plodding the beat. An interesting co-incidence as Dave also joined the Police and ended up a Detective Chief Superintendant in the Kent police. At one time as part of his duties with Special Branch he lectured at the I Corps Depot in Ashford. The GNT machines used in the telecoms industry used punched tape and the number of characters were calculated in ‘bauds per minute’. This is a printer transmission rate which roughly equated to the morse ‘words per minute’. (WPM). On merchant ships the radio officer would punch up the tapes and when ‘comms’ were established the GNT would be switched on and the traffic sent, perhaps ten or twenty messages at a time before ‘QSL’or agree how many to receive before acknowledging them. When the Russian operators were going well they would each send a letter of the ‘Q’ code. Taking it in turns, making Direction Finding (DF) more difficult. Their Merchant Navy operators were even more slick, (the Cuban missile crisis was evidence of this) and all done with the dreaded bug Various types of bug keys or side swipes were used, especially with units in the field as I am led to believe, strapped to the thigh of course as all morse keys would be. Printers (like facsimile) can be easily be identified by the lilting rattle with a distinctive mark and space transmission method. Various organisations 'went to printer' just to get rid of large amounts of traffic, the International link communication systems in the middle east(ILC).The modern form of telegram, date time originator addressee and the subject etc and body of message, just like a radio ops work aboard ship. Many from 9pigs will remember boring hours listening to these for originators like 'odessa silint night etc. Mike Hudson told me that he joined the Royal Signals in 1963, intending to be a Radio Op, as he had been in the communications section of his local Civil Defence Corps, (which he absolutely loved). ‘It was actually good training for the Army, as a certain sense of discipline and personal pride was instilled. Then to Catterick, 11 Sigs Out of the youth came the man. Then came 'The Job Interviews'. Basically you were given an intelligence and aptitude test, somewhat on a par with Mensa, (which incidentally I am a member of) but on a lesser scale. The powers that be decided, in their infinite wisdom, that I should become a Special Operator and sent me off to Garats Hey. I was happy as it was only about 60 miles from home from home, as t'was . ‘Then to 224 Sigs, which after 11 Sigs was heaven. My Instructor was a Scottish Cpl named Rab Aitken and he was GOOD. He cared, about the job, about people and so got the best out of them. so, as an A3 Spec Op, I was detailed for 225 Signal Squadron, Scharfoldendorf and then moved with them in 1967 to Langeleben. You have to understand that Scharfoldendorf was for me and others THE posting, although I did not know it at the time. WO2 Gobby Blease was the SSM and that is the worst I can say about it and he wasn't all that bad Come the move to Langeleben and there were not that many who were happy to go, I being one. Scharfoldendorf was a unique posting and 'C' Troop was more like a family. However, came the day and off we went and arrived at “Butlins”. Greatcoats, not Redcoats and billets not barrack rooms. A proper bed, not a metal monster, with a bedhead that pulled down and gave access to a personal items storage area. Individual lighting and even a carpet on the floor. The only fault in the whole place was that Marlene had yet to come to the NAAFI. Langeleben was now 225 Signal Squadron, the BELL was hung. Meanwhile the Int Corps were being given lessons on how to stroll to music, and the correct way to wear a hankie in the sleeve of their BD’s…………… Picking up on Mike’s ability to recognise some WP operators with whom he had become familiar; Dave Thomas told me that “I spent much of my time listening in to the Germans both the Police and the Boarder Guards. Their procedures tended to be less secure than the Russians, and they would sometimes introduce their own idiosyncrasies. A fairly common one was AS MN (wait a minute). Another was .- … . … … . -. Which obviously came out as a stream of dots with two dashes, and translated as AS ESSEN, it was always sent between seven and eight in the evening by a particular subordinate station to it’s control, which meant after the monthly call sign change we had a pretty good indication of who we were listening to; and helped to build up the new picture ‘Farmer Vaughan was very helpful filling me in on being a ‘boy soldier’. I (Farmer) went to Harrogate Army Apprentices College, as part of intake 70C, this denotes that I arrived for my two years training in the last third of the year, the A and B intakes being the other two. At the time it was a mass production machine for operators of all kinds and for radio technicians. Harsh discipline and high physical standards, opportunities for educational achievements, all pursued ardently with the enthusiasm that only 15 - 17 year old lads can muster. Should you do well in the morse side of training in the first year you were selected to join the "special " training in the second. This meant you were whisked away from the mainstream of radio operators, and totally brainwashed in the reception of high speed morse. You were also taught a new skill - that of transcription, the art of transferring the morse intercepted, onto the Imperial typewriter. Having learnt my morse code at an early age from my Dan Dare communications station, the first year was a snip ! There you are lads, that was where the system went wrong and let me in! After passing your tests, you would graduate as an A3 Special Telegraphist, then go on to further training at Garats Hay Loughborough, where you would be upgraded to A2, and learn the basics of analysis. You would then join you first manservice regiment, then it was 13 or 9 Signals Regiments, and work as a probational A2 Special Telegraphist. Should you not muck up, you would receive your A2 after six months, (maybe 12-bit unsure), of course that meant mixing it with the Catterick commandos - but hey nothing’s perfect !!! vv |
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| paul croxson |
I have just 'stuck' this lot together and now have to make it read a bit better. As you can see there are gaps to be filled.
Please put on your contributions the date you served at langeleben please |
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| paul croxson |
I have just had a note from Gordon Peacock asking if anyone has mentioned "Mercury Grass". The answer is 'No'. Can anyone throw more light than can Gordon on it?
One area worthy of a chapter is 'leisure activities'. Despite the rumours to the contrary we could not have spent all of our time drinking and wenching. I have already raised the lack of reading materials but we did have the snooker table and the darts board, not to mention football. I'v recently discovered that the was a 'recorder trio' and Yes, before anyone asks it was amongst the I Corps. Another area is the marriage into the community. In my day 1954 there werenot that many young ladies who were willing to meet up with Squaddies but it obviously got better! |
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| paul croxson |
I forgot to mention, the spaces in my rough draft are filled with excellent pictures when a word doc. The lad who wrote about keys did me proud!!!! | ||
| paul croxson |
Just another thought - in response to those nasty rude Signals people who mock the I Corps and dancing lessons, may I point out that the only professional dancer ever to appear at LANGELEBEN (at least to my knowledge) was in the Signals and his name was Higgins. His views on Langelebene would be very salutary I think. Is he contactable?
Talking of @contact@ who was the last National serviceman? Is he around and contactable??? Talking of this there is a great argument as to who actually wad the LAST N.S.man. Now, that,s real fame! |
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| paul croxson |
By the way,as I get down to sticking the contributions together I have to convert them all to Times New Roman `12pt. Can contributors help on this. I also set out with the idea that it is good to acknowledge the contributors, the result of which can be seen. Do I continue with this 'style' if so, it is essential to include the date of serving, I believe. | ||
| paul croxson |
I am beginning to see the shape now.
There will be training of Ops and I, Corps On the job Leisure activities What the locals thought of us How langeleben shaped our lives, perhaps for ever The 'opposition' where we already have a fabulous contribution from an Estonian Op Spec and My big dream of locating someone from 3rd Shock The development of radio listening service The contribution that it made to NATO's defence The structure of the 3rd Shock army and its role. It won't be in this order by the way. Any comments on this? |
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| David Thomas |
Hi Paul, Yes your subject headings seem to cover most of the areas we are contributing. I must admit I’m looking forward to reading about what the ‘other side’ thought of us, or how much of a threat they regarded we were. All the best, Dave T. | ||
| paul croxson |
One area that I missed from the list was
THE DAY TO DAY LIFE The shift patterns. What a watch was. (was it the same in the 60's, 70's and 80's as it was in the 50's. I have no idea. Anything on this please. have had some wonderful stuff from Ritchie Hammond, post KOnigslutter which I hope he will agree can be included. |
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| shorep |
I think a history of Langeleben is about people,you ask about the 60's,70's etc and what was it like.
It was a unit in two parts that had been a whole sqn but due to space it was in two locations,one with the dessert rats at w/b. To run a unit like this everything was duplicated,or travelled from one location to the other,so we had signals drivers,the vehicles had to be filled with fuel by quartermaster stores people,fixed by Reme fitters,driven around by civilian drivers,to other stores depots for spares,Royal engineers maintained the gantry,comcen ops(Mick Fill & co)were in the ops block,with S/SGT Penman in charge,the equipment was fixed by mechs,(Bernie Perrin&co),Nick Saye the company clerk with Bill Clarkes missus did the admin,telling the german chargehand(with his peaked forage cap from ww2)what work neede doing.The Plaskit brothers,who were radio ops were the unsung heroes and many of the 'other'signals trades in the unit.The cooks were supervised by a geordie staff sgt who had passed the course with honours,(it is a difficult course that cooks course,you won't find many who have passed it) All these people had to be paid by a pay corps sgt,who looked for ways to avoid the barber,who came to the unit every other Wednesday,was in the dessert with Rommel and had a dodgy leg to prove it. Not to mention the polish displaced people who did the gaurd duties with two vicious alsatians. So,if it takes 19 people to keep one soldier in the field,how many to keep a couple of ops,and errant I corp on shift,Hudson had his point,Langeleben existed by the people in the unit,nothing at all to do with the job done there.Since a large number of the people in the unit neither knew or cared what went on in the ops block,I know I did not care less about it but enjoyed the company of everbody in the unit |
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| paul croxson |
I know the history of Langeleben is about 'people'. Why on earth do you think I have been asking for contributions.
"errant"? That is about as relevant to the subject as rats who eat puddings, or did you mean desert? |
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| shorep |
Yet again Paul you miss the point, the very thing Hudson is talking about.
By the way,the unit at Wolf that the other 'half' of the sqn billeted with were Irish Hussars(7th armoured),the perverbial desert rats. |
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| paul croxson |
Frankly Mr Shorep, I am now bored with the whole damned thing. Can I gently point out that all you can do is to express what is an opinion. After all, you may be right but. so may I.
I know exactly what I set out to do (it was entirely my idea) and if it differs from what you want then take it over! |
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| paul croxson |
By the way Mr Shorep did you notice that in the Irish Hussars website 'Dessert(sic)' is spelled slightly unusually too. By the way, the company who continue to employ my fading talents is the biggest and best sellers of Military literature and ephemera (www.maggs.com) so it is a subject with which I am not totally ignorant | ||
| paul croxson |
Dave, the contributions from the 'baddies' are absolutely marvellous!
I can't believe we have got them. So ... the I Corps (who dug them up) aren't completely useless. I am hoping that there is even more to come in that area. Sending you the chapter on the history of radio interception direct to your email address. GENERAL Am I dreaming when I recall being woken up to go on watch with s/steel buckets of tea? Or was that just hoping? |
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| paul croxson |
Did you get the bit on radio interception? There has been no comment on it so as usual I wonder if it ever arrived. I am old enough not to trust these electronicals | ||
| paul croxson |
I have just learned that there were/are intercept stations operated by the TA following National Service from one of our members. Did anyone else get involved and would they like to add their memories to Richard's? Did they carry on after the end of National Service in 1962?
I hope that there will be some more memories coming through soon. You have all had the opportunity of seeing what it looks like and how worthwhile a project it is. |
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| Gordon |
Paul
In your editorial labours did you discover the Wikipedia article on traffic analysis? Informative and non-technical. If the internet had been around in 1956 I might have understood what I was doing. Gordon |
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| paul croxson |
I'll read it right now!
It is amazing that we had NO idea where we, the ants, fitted into the Universe. What is amazing is that it was going of i the first World War but Welshman, working at GCHQ thought that he had discovered it all over again Just been ploughing through a History of the Y Service only to discover fro the index that the I Corps and MI8 get no mention. I then see it was written by a WAAF operator! |
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| paul croxson |
Gordon,
I have read it and now realize that I had read it before and indeed had quoted fro it mercilessly. So, I agree(d) entirely with your view of it. I think that I asked you if you recalled John Fortey. I have just been assembling his contribution fro a load of emails. He holds a Birgelen I Corps re-union evry year |
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| marleneandgypo |
Paul and Gordon (sounds like a sixties singing duo..) I am a church magazine editor and often have to copy and paste and sometimes it can be a nightmare
if the settings, font, etc aren't the same. A sigs friend of mine Chris Hayles sent me this link: http://www.papercut.biz/emailStripper.htm It downloads in seconds and you copy as usual paste into the little box, then click 'strip it' and it turns it into some good text ready to paste into your Word document. It is also helping if forwarding mail as it takes out all that annoying > business. BTW Chris has joined here but can't post for some reason, does anyone know why? Thanks quote="Gordon"]Paul I've just selected, copied and pasted your last post into a blank Word document. Seemed to work OK. Gordon[/quote] |
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| paul croxson |
To those who have submitted additional memories, additions and corrections - a 'Thank you'
They will not appear on the website version until I bring it up to date, so, in the meantime please keep them coming |
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| Tom Neal |
Re Chris not being able to post as far as I am aware until he actually joins our association and pays his subs he is blocked from leaving a message.
Tom |
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| paul croxson |
If it is for the history anyone, member or not can email me with a contribution. paul.croxson@ntlworld.com | ||
| marleneandgypo |
Ah I see, fair enough, thank you Tom, I will tell him.
I am not sure how he links with Langeleben but he knows a couple of our active members, Mike Hudson and Pete Shoreland, but Chris himself served in Herford. There is a link but i don't know what it is. Marlene
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| paul croxson |
Tom has put the latest version of the history up on the website ready for comment, criticism and additions.
Its worth reading for Marlene's 'confessions' if nothing else. That should wke you all up! |
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| marleneandgypo |
I am sure I don't know to what you refer young sir
Going over right now for a look. Marlene
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| paul croxson |
several people have suggested that the history would be improved were the subjects in a different order. I agree entirely and should have done it before. Matter 'Langeleben' will move to the front and the Russian Army to the rear (where they rightly belong).
Thank you to those who have commented. It helps! |
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| marleneandgypo |
Hi Paul, and everyone who contributed. What a wonderful tribute to our special place (and time) the history is, well done!!! I am so honoured to have been asked to contribute as well and liked the pictures chosen, thanks Paul.
I am certainly enjoying hearing about life on the other side of the counter too. This deserves to be in a book. Marlene
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| Ernie Callaghan |
May I congratulate all those concerned in producing the magnificient History of Langeleben with a special mention to Paul Croxson, John Richardson and all those that contributed to what is probably a unique undertaking never before attempted in the annuls of the British army, and could only have been completed by the talent that was ever present at Langeleben.
Ernie Callaghan. |
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| paul croxson |
Ernie, far be it from criticising when receiving such a del;ightful mention but ... IT IS NOT FINISHED!
As a 'living history' it will always grow, I hope. Several more contributions are in the pipeline and even more are wanted. Now they can see the product I hope more will make contributions. What is the feeling about getting it printed as a book? |
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| ken vipond |
Hi Paul,i already sent you a message asking the same question about if the history project will be put into print,my own opinion is yes,i think it would be a great idea,but as you say the project is a ongoing project with people adding bits and pieces now and again,so when do you draw the line on the printable information but upto now you have done a fantastic job,best regards from Ken.
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| Tom Neal |
Hi Paul and others,
Yes it is an ongoing history but we have to draw a line with regards to a print run. Why not fix a date now for the last entries and then look for a publisher which I am sure Paul probably has someone in mind already. I am happy for Paul to fix a date for the last entries and there is nothing to stop a Part 2 being published in the future is there? Tom |
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| Gordon |
Dear joint contributors to and readers of the history project.
I have some reservations about the proposal to print the history. Briefly these are as follows: 1. The readership is likely to be quite small, with sales (at a guess) between 100 and 200 copies. Any publisher of so small a print run would certainly require a financial guarantee up front. 2. One of the attractions of the on-line history is its good quality images, many in colour. Printing good quality images, especially in colour, is hugely expensive. 3. The on-line version incurs no distribution costs, and is available to all who wish to access it. Looking to the future, it will continue to be accessible to all who may be interested in it, whether they find it through a process of serendipity or through increasingly sophisticated search engines. I cast my mind back to the "Samovar Song Books" produced at JSSL Bodmin and Crail in the 1950s. They are now great rarities. I have heard of only one extant copy of the Russian course material used at JSSL. If only the internet had been around when these publications were conceived! Everybody could now have access to them. Let's not go back to the printed page when IT has given us the opportunity of escaping from its tyranny. Gordon |
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| Tom Neal |
Sorry to disagree Gordon but I do not like trying to read a lengthy document on screen.
I have hundreds of books and I like to able to go and pick one up to read any time I feel like it. I would also be prepared to pay upfront if it comes to that. Tom |
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| Gordon |
Tom
I am at one with you in generally preferring the printed book to any other medium. The question to be answered is: can the History be produced in book form to a good standard at reasonable cost? I'm happy to suspend judgment on that until we have the facts and figures. When in 2000 we moved to a smaller house I took trailer-loads of books to charity shops, leaving me with my current collection of around 800. Only two of my books seemed to me to merit any special treatment, and they were the two Samovar Song Books, which I gave to the National Library of Scotland. Strictly speaking, being one of the UK's copyright libraries, the National Library of Scotland was entitled to free copies on publication. Fifty years later the National Library had still not received them, until my donation made up for the ommission! I suspect that these copies are the only publicly accessible copies in Scotland, and possibly in the UK. I tell the story to indicate how quickly books of minority interest can disappear from view. If we want to preserve the Langeleben experience for posterity, the future (as far as I can see) is digital! Gordon |
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| kerby |
HistoryGood evening Tom & Gordon, I think this subject of Book or Digital is a very difficult one to answer. I think we all agree that a book would be great as it is something 'tangible' ie one can hold it and read as and when. However, I thnk the question of 'cost' comes into consideration. How many pages will it be? How many copies will be required? What will the demand be? Therefore, what will the cost be? I suspect that a compromise may well be the answer ie we print it ourselves. A good quality printer with good quality paper and bound with thicker covers ,say to A5 size. This to be only in the event of printers not being able to print a proper book within our price. Something for discussion. Keith |
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| paul croxson |
May I join the discussion please?
As Gordon knows a part of my business is the production of high quality books (which are really catalogues) with relatively small runs, average 1200. Our company expenditure on these is well in excess of £100,000 and so I have all of the contacts and buying power that is needed to follow this route , if necessary. Yes, Keith, we can print out our own copies but even on a good quality printer you lose a lot of the quality - to date I have printed the 'book' out 3 times, ignoring the one or two colour bits. It looks what it is - 150 A4 pages in a ring back binding (in house). I produced a little book on VC's (Tom has a copy) and this was done with top quality reproduction and half tones - the lot. Colour covers etc. I can give the costs on this as a guide but I don't think we need this quality. As a pure conceit I would love to publish it, and I have access to ISBN numbers etc. but then we come to the number to be printed for sale. 100.... would be right ON A GOOD DAY. I co-wrote and publishd a bibliography on model yachting (don't laugh) and it took us about 3 years to sell the first 500 copies and that covered our costs. It got my name in Google though! A print run of less than 800 is probably not commercially feasible. Its only the cost of paper really after this number. I would suggest that we carry on the discussion - why not - but do nothing for the time being. Contributions are coming in, I put more in only last night. There are promises of several other contributions some of which are quite important. We have to try and balance the excess of 50's, I Corps and NS contributions which is my aim at the moment, not by cutting out but by getting more input. Put the word out! I still labour towards the final proof-reading too, which as a book becomes more important. Anyway, thanks for all of the comment it is both helpful and gratefully received. It makes it all worthwhile. Talking to the professionals (and Gordon is one but retired) the long term storage of electronic material is one hell of a problem. I sold my Edison cylinder player last year and have seen vinyl disappear. I recall Betamax. What happened to floppy discs? My contribution to the Imperial War Museum is on 2 cd's. It will be no damned use to man nor beast if in 50 years there is no cd player available for the PhD student to listen. Anyway more to be chewed over and spat out. Thanks, most sincerely to you all. |
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| Gordon |
Paul
Your remarks on the transitory nature of digital storage devices reminded me that earlier this year I tried (and failed) to retrieve a moderately important document I had written and saved to a floppy a mere five years ago. So I agree, digitization is not the whole answer, just part of the answer. It's one of those problems that are so important that you feel an answer just has to be found, and given the pace of technological change, probably will. Meanwhile, major libraries throughout the world are sitting on vast quantities of crumbling newspapers which can be taken off the shelves for one last time to be microfilmed or digitized before they fall to pieces. I think I will bequeath the paper copy of the History (if produced) to the grandchild most likely to be interested in it, and give the others a download on a flash card (or whatever the trendy medium is then!) Gordon |
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| paul croxson |
Gordon
Have no fears Sir. It will be produced and it may well come out as a book. It has to get bigger and better first though |
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| paul croxson |
I've been fidling around, put some contributions in and re-instated some which had dropped off. Sorry John Fortey.
I have changed it to 8 point type and to A5 and viewed it as a book and it seems to work. It is then 134 pages long but I have to fiddle with the margins |
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| paul croxson |
I went to an I Corps Old Fogies meeting at a working Camp- Netheravon.
What a difference! 50%, are women, in fact they arranged the whole thing, there are 3 women RSM's in the Corps. One of them who talked on the role of women has a 6yr old and a 9mth old and her husband is in the Corps. She was talking about a 'posting to Afghanistan' and 'leaving the kids with Grandma'. If I were Granny I would start running Now. Overall what a smart lot they were and ... the Army has finally given up pimply leather boots. No wonder we can't beat anyone nowadays! I met Mike Shail who was at Langeleben in the 60's. Reminiscing, he raved about Dewi as being a great charcter and said he should make a contribution. Does anyone know him well enough to talk him in to it? |
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| paul croxson |
Just popped in for a quickie. Two more contributions received to day and already they are in the latest version. Hopefully there are more contributions in the pipeline.I will ask Tom to put it on the web next week. | ||
| David Thomas |
Hi Paul, I was visiting another R Signals site just now and came across a reference you may or may not be aware of. “The British Army’s Secret Intelligence and Communications Regiment of WW2; Bristol; Cerberus 2003 ISBN 1841451185. I’ve no idea what it’s like, but thought you might like to know. All the best. Dave T. | ||
| paul croxson |
Hello Dave
That's a new one on me. I will have a dig around |
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| paul croxson |
Found it!
The book is actuall called Phantom at War by Sir Robt Mark, Andy & Sue Parlour. It is the story of the General Hq Liaison Regt which was code named 'Phantom' and it seems that it was a true signals unit and mobile. It saw action at Arnhem for example. Doesn't seem tobe in our line sadly, but Thanks nevertheless. |
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| David Thomas |
Hi Paul, Well done for finding it so quickly, I've no idea what your resources are, but they're obviously very exstensive. Sorry it was no help, but these things have to be worth a shot. All the best, and have a good Christmas. Dave T | ||
| paul croxson |
Its my business Dave, Trade secrets | ||
| paul croxson |
As things are quiet at the moment apart from our trying to be a support to Marlene (I hope we are succeeeding) can I suggest that anyone who had their memories jolted by reading the History and would like to add a contribution or comment on an existing one do so NOW. I have put several new bits in since publication and before trying Tom's patience once again ...... Is there anything else that you would like to say? Don't worry if you are not used to writing or don't like doing it. I'll make something of it, I promise and no-one will know.
My DIRECT email which is open to ANYONE to reply to is paul.croxson@ntlworld.com. Security guaranteed Many thanks |
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