Memorial Letter

paul croxson · Memorial Letter

I have thought long and hard before writing this.
For the record, I have made a small donation to the fund which hopefully gives me the right to enter the debate.
I went to Germany in April 1955. WE were an Occupying Force and, in some respects, as a result, we were considered to be on active service.
My previous experience of Germany and the Germans was based on 6 years of war and 9 years of povery due entirely to Germany.
I had watched at close quarters the Blitz of London, my own home was destroyed by a landmine after having had to move from London as all London Schools had been closed for "the duration". I spent day after day in air raid shelters at school and then at night, trying to get some sleep in the cold damp shelter buried in the garden. We were scared stiff; my sister was atually machine gunned, with others in the playground whilst evacuated to Norwich. My Uncle was killed by a German parachutist during the invasion of Crete. He was a stretcher bearer bearing a RED CROSS. My house was again badly damaged by 2 flying bombs one of which damned nearly killed my Father and then a V2 landed up the road killing several of our neighbours, including a baby called 'Winston'. Anyone who lived through the Winter of 1947 will recall the terrible times we had and also the efforts that were made to save Germany with the Berlin airlift. We had very little more ourselves and had to watch sackloads of coal being flown in whilst our coal bunker had been swept absolutely clean. We burnt our fence - and we had won the bloody war!
We had German prisoners of War working repairing the damage but it was on pain of virtual death that we spoke to them but we were allowed to talk to the Eyties as they were known. We liked them!
There were still several old men around coughing their guts up, having been gassed in the First World War. My Granddad had a pension for his injuries; he fought from 1914 to 1917 as a gunner. I have his Somme diaries.
It will not surprise anyone if I say that I hated Germans as a whole, not able to vent my venom on any German until I met some german students of my own age through an exchange made under the auspices of the United Nations. My Mother was horrified that I should have anything to do with them but through the Youth Club I got to know them quite well and spent several days chaperoning them around London, my back garden. They were able to see that the destruction had gone in both directions but we and the Americans had proved to be better at it then them. They were far better dressed than we were, seemed to have more money and they all had cameras (I saw my first Voigtlander) AND WE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND WHY. Hadn't we won the War and we certainly could not afford to go to Germany. A 5/6d day excursion to Brighton was our idea of a holiday with 6d to spend in the funfair.
It was on this foundation of hatred for everything German that I went there. As someone has said in the History, we were made totally unwelcome by the local populace in Munster: for most of us, the feeling was mutual. My time in Munchen Gladbach was so brief that I would not condemn anyone there.
So, my 'friendship', for lack of a better word, with Germany started in 1955 with one hell of a lot of bitterness to overcome. It never was! I never met anyone who would admit to fighting on the Western front, they'd all been fighting the dreaded (mutually) Russians. The one or two pilots had never dropped a single bomb or fired a single bullet in anger against us.
No one had known a thing about any of the concentration camps yet thousands lived close to or worked at them. They had seen train after train of refugees being taken to them and I was reliably informewd by an I Corps sergeant, one of the first to enter Belsen, that the stench was appalling for quite a distance. All of his hair fell out with the shock of what he encountered. ONe or two of you might recall Sgt Mackay, an absolute gentleman.
We were ignored by most of the people in Konigslutter and for this reason we drank only in Schuman's and the Deutcheshaus who were happy to take our money and buy our cigarettes. Until November we were still the Occupying Force. We were locked in the Camp for 2 days and I will Never forget the Germans who came up to the Camp to scream at us through the fence. My friend Ernie Casteldine with one other whose name I forget was extremely badly beaten up.
Very few girls would have anything to do with the Squaddies and most of us, though unwilling to admit it led a very celebate life indeed. 'Tent pegging' had nothing to do with the tents we lived in!
One or two we could describe as friendly but very very few.
When I read that the Committee have decided to forget the military aspect of the stay in Langeleben and to concentrate on the friendship I felt it essential to record that for me and I suspect those older members of the Group this did not represent the Langeleben we knew.
Bluntly, why should we forget the militrary aspect? What the hell were we there for? WE didn't want to be there or in the Army in the first place.
When I talk at the re-unions we all say that we had no idea how beautiful an area it was. Let's face it, the forests were just something through which we had to walk to get to and from a drink. It was a lousy skiing area too.
What I am saying is, that to me, to represent the memorial as being a memorial to a wonderful stay amongst the wonderful Germans, enveloped by their friendship, in a beautiful place is a total travesty of the truth for some of us. How many, I do not know.
I for one stand up. all 6' 1" of me for the memorial commemorating our service and what we did for Peace.
I am glad that friendship followed and the border collapsed. I recall well someone saying at the time of the breakdown " I love Gemany and all that it stands for a great deal. That's why I like having two of them"
Spot on! I'm with you there!

Ernie Callaghan · Langeleben memorial

Christ Paul, I bet you feel so much better having got all that off your chest, so much pent up fury after 62 years. Do you think that the Spanish hate us for the sinking of their armada, that the French hate us for our outrageous behaviour at Waterloo, that most of Africa still rankle over the slave trade that made untold riches for the English entrepreneurs who used their lashed backs to lean on in the sugar plantations of the West Indies. Was it Archbishop Tutu who said "when the Englishmen came to Africa they had the religion we had the land now we have religion they have the land"? Who sacked India of its riches then left it partitioned? Who set up concentration camps in South Africa before they became fashionable? Who pinched the Elgin Marbles from Greece and stocked our museums with precious artifacts from all over the "uncivilised world"? What I am trying to say Paul is that we all have our sins to bear and that harbouring eternal grudges is not the way to make this world a better place.
The Langeleben memorial is for the people who served at the camp over the 41 years during which many friendships with the local population were forged, (not to mention some forty plus marriages.)
I am sorry that your thoughts about the German nation was so soured by your wartime experiences and your obvious failure to connect with the local Fraulines.
If you think the memorial ought to be a replica of the Cenotaph then we should give up the idea now and return donations, remember we have to have the agreement of the Stadt Helmstedt and the Koenigslutter Council on the content and form of the "Stone"

paul croxson

Ernie, yes I do think the French still hate us for Waterloo - that and many more things. Like leaving them (as they see it) in the lurch in 1940.
If you really want a good laugh, have a look at a french account of their win at Cadiz. Admiral Villefranche never fought and lost anywhere near Trafalgar. Don't forget I lived in France so know what I am talking about in this instance at least. We are being asked to apologise for slavery so I am NOT the only one with a long memory
No, it isn't pent up anger at all. I am a pacifist by nature, I promise. I just try and create a balance. It was not all love, light and happiness and history should be neither forgotten nor altered. I would not have raised the point had it not been for the committee to seemingly make a deliberate effort to forget/ignore why we were ever at Langeleben (from the memorial's point of view). It certainly was not a branch of Butlins GMBH it was a military establishment through and through. Look at the history we have laboriously assembled and sadly, in the early days (which is all I know), there is little in the way of pleasure in the countryside etc being expressed, is there? Inj fact very little throughout.
Many people will have had a far worse relationship than I with Germany during the two wars and hopefully it, fascism, is behind us. Sadly though we cannot afford to think it gone for ever. Already it is maifesting itself in the East and is growing rapidly on the back of discontentment. The National Front is finding a fertile seedbed here in the UK.
Finally, Ernie, I note that we will have to have the approval of the two Councils to the wording on the memorial. Why is that, is it because we might say something nasty about them? Don't they trust us?

shorep

Being a fervant catholic and ex alterboy I have not forgiven the Romans or Jews for the crucifixation of Jesus Christ,howzat for going back a bit??????

paul croxson

I have just watched a fascinating programme on a French Edwardian photo collector and his work recording the Balkans and the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire. If anyone thinks that we can and should ignore what history tells us they should watch the programme. There it was, 1905-1910 and ethnic cleansing rife with the same old teams playing. There is a good old latin phrase* to describe it so, as Shorep wisely says, let's add on a couple of centuries whilst we are at it.
* I'm waiting Gordon!
I think it may escape some people as to what I was trying to do when listing my personal travails. I was trying, perhaps, probably, failing, to put my time, (no one else's), at Langeleben into context. Had I served a mere 10 years later none of that history would have been relevant. It would all have been in the context of the Cold War and the Russkies who, 10 years earlier had been "our Gallant Allies".
To summarise and get back to the memorial. I feel most strongly that the military content of our time should not be ignored. To me, it would be an absolute travesty.
Has the Committee (everyone of whom I greatly admire and like) the backing, I wonder, to take this decision without reference to the membership?

paul croxson

By the way, it was Admiral Villeneuve not Villefranche who won at Cadiz, oops Trafalgar. I do recommend anyone with a bit of spare time to look at it on the web.

Gordon

Shorep

I hesitate to enter what might turn out to be a theological minefield, but forty years have passed since the Second Vatican Council absolved Jews of collective guilt for the death of Jesus, a policy reiterated with approval by the present Pope. Time to move on?

Paul

Can't for the life of me think what Latin quotation you had in mind.

Gordon

paul croxson

Oh dear, Gordon, I'll have to fossick around for the quote.
By the way, is there any truth in the rumour that the Pope has a special offer on this Christmas for Indulgences?

Gordon

Paul

Yes, there is; though the offer is not for Christmas but to mark the 150th anniversary of appearances of the Virgin Mary to Bernadette Soubirous at Lourdes.

Gordon

paul croxson

Funny old thing this religion business, Gordon.
I remember in my youth that your team - I played for the Congregationalists in those days - had better pitches than us or the equivalent. It was a joy to go to a Methodist chapel and luxuriate in superb seats rather than on the painful pews that we had. I then found out that, courtesy of J. Arthur Rank, the Methodists were recycling cinema seats. I call that an unfair advantage personally.

Ernie Callaghan · Langeleben Memorial

Paul, you may or may not remember that at the last AGM in Koenigslutter I asked and it was agreed that the committee should have the mandate to make decisions about the form of the memorial taking into consideration the members thoughts when making donations, this was so as not to prolong the procedure. No decisions will be taken by the committee before a full discussion takes place at the next AGM in Loughborough, we just need a starting point and have come up with a working model after a meeting at Burleigh Court Loughborough in September.
Costs paid at our own expence. We are working for the membership and of course will take the majority view.

David Thomas

Hi Gents, Paul, you clearly feel very strongly about retaining an element of military presence in the memorial. Being so very much older than the rest of us, it could be that you have more cause for stronger feelings about Germans, you quite rightly speak from your own experiences, as each of us speak from ours. 8 to 10 years after your time, things were obviously very much better, in truth I cannot claim any better success with the local lassies than you, but I put that down as much to the times we were living in and my lack of ability in speaking German, rather than any anti feeling amongst the local population. The girls at home were equally reluctant to “put out” as were the ladies from Konigslutter. Perhaps I’m just an ugly so and so.
From what I remember of the suggestions put forward in June and the discussions that followed, the idea of a large Ear with or without some form of listening device seemed to be flavour of the day, symbolising the purpose of the site for the whole 40 years we were there. Personally I don’t see this as running counter to the site being a military base, or being overtly friendly to the local population, it just symbolises what we did very well for a very long time.
We did ask the committee to act on our behalf, and I look forward to learning what progress has been made when we meet again in May.
PS. Does anyone have any suggestions of what we can do with an eight foot bronze statue of Jimmy, which plays “Be gone dull care” every hour, the first Mrs Thomas is a bit fed up with it cluttering up the hall.
All the best. Dave T.

paul croxson

I remember the Konigsl;utter discussions well. Indeed there was a mandate given as to the form of the memorial. Equally, out of politeness several I spoke to had refrained from commenting adversely about the extraordinary ear and/or the barrier. Personally I found them a ghastly concept but after the 'Teacher' had done so much work and seemed so enthusiastic I thought it then the wrong place to point this out. I did mention it after the meeting which I thought was the right thing to do. I may well have been in the minority but certainly not alone in my dislike of the designs put forward. I did not think that any mandate given covered the choice of words though. I may well be wrong. I put my trust in the fact that Pete's son would be having a major input in the design and I couldn't see him going along with the ear or the barrier!

I am sure that I am with everyone in saying that there is no way that we want the committee to bear ANY expenses in this exercise. They already do enough for us.I hope others reading this will confirm this. There will be more money available come the day, certainly from me if it is needed.
Several people put in time and effort for our Group which is why I started a 'thank you' to our webmaster. I have put in many hours for the history the doing of which has given me enormous pleasure and satisfaction which are added to enormously by the odd 'Thank you'. I am sure Ernie , that you are aware of my appreciation of all of your efforts, year after year but wanting to have an input does not in any way imply criticism.

Ernie Callaghan · Memorial letter

Ear Ear Paul, we do know that our efforts are appreciated and indeed young Paul Ellis is fully involved. We did not think much of the ear idea either and the clasped hands, the British Armd Forces emblem and the Koenigslutter lion seem to have come out on top, earphones have also been mentioned. Paul is working on designs and getting foundry quotes for bronze castings of the text, he is also looking into the possibility of exporting four Portland stones to Germany for interlocking and assembly there.
I personally would like to thank you and Tom for the enormous amount of work that you have both put in to produce the exellent history project wich is probably unique in its concept.
The committee and I also get enormous pleasure out of what we do and our lives are enriched because of our connection with the Langeleben reunion association.

paul croxson

That's good news Ernie
Yes the History can be heading for unique. There are several histories and several where personal stories are recounted. It is the mixture I feel which will make it special together with the enormous number of photos that we have managed to dig out. This is particularly so for the 50's when cameras were far from plentiful and the only phones were in boxes.
I still want more entries particularly from the late sixties and the seventies to counterbalance the national servicemen. Any chance of getting Mike Hudson back on the scene and writing something? The 225 website can't be stretching his abilities much, can it?

Gordon

Two recent posts have mentioned bronze (for different reasons), and gave me pause for thought. Given the soaring price of scrap tin, lead and copper I would be uneasy about having too much of it set up in a public place. Within the last month my church has lost 20 sq metres of lead roof, while several Georgian town houses in York's St Saviourgate are now minus their beautiful lead drain pipes. It may be however that the good citizens of Lower Saxony have more regard for their built environment than we do.

On the other hand, this could be good news for Dave T. Why not melt your statue down, Dave, or put it in the garden (suitably padlocked) as a hedge against inflation?

Gordon

David Thomas

Hi Gordon, Yes I know several churches have suffered loss of their rooves, as have Electricity sub stations lost copper links. More than one sub station shows eveidence of injury to the individual nicking the booty. However, I must put you right on one point, the first Mrs Thomas, will not allow anything as common as hedges. No, we have gilt tipped iron railing with wraught iron gates, enclosing our designer B&Q decking with solar panneled night lights. Some have remarked that it is a bit pretentious for a mid terrace, two up and two down, but we like it. All the best, Dave T.

paul croxson

Gordon
Why aren't you telling us about tonight's Milky Way treat.
I rely on you for everything non terrestrial
I saw summat in the Independent on Sunday but its been thrown away, or rather re-cycled.

marleneandgypo · Re: Memorial Letter

Hi Paul and everyone

On the first reading of the original letter you wrote I have to say, while I can well appreciate all that you have seen and experienced in years past with Germans and Germany, and of course your experiences with Langeleben are very different to ours, I was personally very offended with the tone of the mail and didn't feel I could write again here until I had read and re-read the letter to see if it was me taking things the wrong way.

The hatred for Germans is what I grew up with in England. I was born in 49 and we lived in London so you can imagine (or can you?) how it was for me and my brother and cousin who all lived in the same house when parents wouldn't let their children play with us because of the same reasons you give. We were bullied, isolated and frightened. Even some of my English relatives on dad's side resented us. Yet I was English, born in the same hospital as Prince William himself. my grandmother was housekeeper to Lady Lewis, the Queen Mother's aunt and I have mail here from her to my grandmother. Meanwhile in Germany, I was just one of the kids and was accepted by everyone. I don't have one incident I can recall of a German parent or kid bullying me or pulling their child away from me.

Back in England in the workplace I was still facing the hatred of the Germans to my face so I decided to leave, and I went to live in Germany and still wanting to retain things English was delighted with my posting in Langeleben. Here I found acceptance. The men were amazing, the German workers welcoming, I had come home. Until now, I never connected Langeleben with discrimination between Germans and English people.

I have NO right to comment on the memorial, I am just a NAAFI worker, that is something for the men who served to decide, but I will say that it appears to me that there was more than one Langeleben as far as memory is concerned. I have seen the photos and read the marvellous history and it is apparent to me that experiences at Langeleben evolved all the time as did the relationship between the men and the locals - as they still continue to do.

Against all odds no matter what our individual experiences in England in or just after the war and in Germany likewise, we all walked through the tunnel and came out into the open as friends.

You men did something amazing at Langeleben. in my lifetime I have never seen anything like it and never will again. Look at us all these years later still coming together and talking sharing and discussing. For us, Gypo and me, it has been 38 years since we first met 'underneath the lamp-post by the barrack gates' we can hardly believe it. For some of you it has been a lot longer, and it's for this reason that I decided to write at last, not to give offence, but to simply say what I have to say from MY heart as you did in your mailing.

Long may our friendship continue.

Marlene

Tom Neal

Well said Marlene and do not put yourself down by saying you were 'just' a NAAFI girl.
In 1956 I did not encounter any bad feelings from any Germans in the different parts of Germany I was on detachment to, at least not to my face.

Tom

paul croxson

Marlene,
I certainly did not, nor I suspect, anyone else, expect you to take the sins of a nation on personally so, why should you be offended?
What I was doing was to point out that it was not all love and friendship between the two countries in the 50's. I am not alone in my recollectios. There is another account in the 'history'about the way we squaddies were treated in Munster. I was at Langeleben in November 1955 and regardless of what anyone would like to be said, the hostility towards us was strong and very violent.

Thank God there is a different attitude now!

How can we forget those days? Why on earth were we in Germany in the first place? I certainly didn't want to spend 2 years of my life in the Army. When we, Great Britain, France and the USA went there it was as occupying troops folowing defeat of the Nazi regime (see how I avoid using the word German). So, on this basis, to ignore the military aspect of the troops in BAOR is to turn one's back on the reality.

You felt and still feel, free to criticise your reception as a 'German' in England - I took no personal insult at that (none of us did). I was not to blame; I played no part in making your life a misery.You told us the reality; so, why do you seemingly resent me doing the same?

If one forgets history and the truth, palatable or otherwise, we will never learn. The BNP. Le Pen, and others are rearing their ugly heads. The emnity towards Moslems, commonly referred to as 'Pakis' grows stronger daily. It was on the back of this type of hatred that Hitler came to power.
And, he got there by free and fair elections and look how he was welcomed in Austria!
No, I will not forget (nor probably forgive) the Germany of the thirties, forties and early fifties. It is not within my power to do so.
I will not write on this subject again which will probably be to the relief of everyone but it, is,I would remind you, a Forum

marleneandgypo

Yes Paul, ever willing to say when I am wrong, looking at it from this point of view, I stand corrected. Why indeed should I take what you had to say personally? You make a very good, and for me, valuable point and I will be looking seriously at that for the future. As you rightly say you were simply saying how it was for you as I was saying how it was for me. Maybe the areas in Germany were worse in their treatment of English people than they were in Bad Lippspringe. My dad after all was also a soldier serving in occupied Germany, it's how he met my mum. My grandad was well known amongst the soldiers for making them dressing gowns out of army blankets (he was a tailor), and with both of his daughter as marrying English soldiers and the neighbours still speaking to him and my grandmother, I guess it was different there. I 'guess' but i don't know.

Anyway, a good learning curve and I thank you for it. I am glad I posted earlier so that I could receive this valuable insight.

Many thanks
Marlene

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