I spent a couple of weeks or so at Munster before we transferred to Munchen Gladbach as Birgelen was then known in 1955.
Apart from buying a brass miniature of the Cathedral on the one shopping expedition for my Mum's mantelpiece and a mini stein I saw damn all of it.
I had my weekly education top-up with Melvin Bragg this morning and they talked about Munster, the Anababtists and Luther.
Once again I realised that, being the callow youth that I was the history of Germany passed me by. I am embarrassed to admit that I never got past the Dom doors in Konigslutter and although I took a photo or two of the old houses that was the limit of my historical knowledge. What a shame but I bet I am not unique!
RonB
I know the feeling, Paul. I still regret the lost opportunities for picking up ‘culture’ on the cheap when we were so near to it. I think the main problem was that we were so keen to get back to UK when we had a decent bit of leave.
From Langeleben I did manage to have nice weekends in Goslar and Hannover and actually went to the opera in Braunschweig (Turandot). This last was a bit of a disaster – one of the party was unwell, we had to leave before the end and Dave Packer had a collision with a car, at low speed thankfully, outside the opera house. Can’t remember much about the opera but was mightily impressed by the huge flock of migrating geese which overtook the microbus on the way there. The biggest flock I’ve ever seen.
Strangely, I discovered this site by accident. I’d seen the rebuilding of Dresden cathedral on television and wondered what they had achieved with Munster cathedral – they’d hardly started repairing the damage when I was there. The google search threw up 1 Wireless etc.
All the Best
Gordon
Regrets? Mine is that I didn’t take the opportunity to learn some German, though I did make efforts to keep up my Russian. Langeleben was not altogether hospitable to study. I often stopped at the Dom for a few minutes on my walks to Slutter. I recall one visit when I disturbed two ladies dusting the furniture. Having no German I was unable to assure them that I only wanted a few minutes peace and quiet. I was carrying with me the Penguin Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles (as one does). I pointed to the cover, said “Apostelgeschichte”, and received a smiling welcome in return. The Dom, the forest, and a little cafe in Slutter whose name I forget (served great cream buns) were three good places for a quiet read.
Ernie Callaghan
Slightly digressing from the main subject heading but keeping to the culture and language theme. In 1958 we squaddies, if inclined, had the opportunity of learning basic German on camp with "free gratis" lessons from a Mrs Brotherton, a civvy camp worker who was a German national married to a British soldier. Mrs Brotherton tought us all the Frauline chatting up language we needed to know and I am grateful to her to this day.
It later transpired (allegedly) that Mrs Brotherton either defected or went back to the Eastern zone in the early 1960's. I would love to know more about her story, can anyone help?
David Thomas
Hi Guys, What’s this Ernie, digressing from the main topic that will never do. Going back to Paul’s point of missed opportunities, I think it may be more age related (as we all know, much is). My time at Langeleben was spent in the noble pursuits of drinking, rugby and letching young ladies, and various combinations of the same. Had that been my only time in Germany, as it was for all you old timers, then that would have been my memories too, however, I went back many many times in fact I was over there at least once a year for more than 20 years. In that time I got to learn a bit of the language, meet lots of locals, and see much of the country, north and south, as far east as we were allowed, and of course the west. It’s a well know fact, that we regret what we didn’t do, seldom what we did. All the best. Dave.
paul croxson
What a cross-section of responses.
There we have Gordon, the Penguin Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles 'Shimmering' (As P.G. Wodehouse once put it) through the streets of Konigslutter - no doubt with his recorder in his pocket, silk cravat round his kneck, mine were rayon - like something out of Brideshead Revisited: Pull the other one Gordon; you must have been half way to being bi-lingual with that sort of vocabulary.
"Apostelgeschichte" I ask you!
Then we have Ernie learning just enough to pull the birds. Many a night I spent in trying to tranlate incoherent messages that some thick GD man wanted to pass on to a Fraulein and then watch him take her off for a knee-trembler after a lyrical "Kommen sie mit". No bloody justice!
Young Ron Berg getting a dose - of Turandot I hasten to add - at the Braunswieg Opera. I did that Ron, too, along with Stu Brisley. I think that I saw Rigoletto though. I say "saw". In fact I was stuck behind a damned great pillar and the only way I saw anything was by doing a second rate imitation of a pendulum. But then I have a vague memory of "che gelida manina" so perhaps I was at La Boheme. I'll never know as Stu Brisley ignores my letter(s) and, when I have met him, disclaimed all memories of Langeleben.
That Mrs Brotherton, Ernie. Was she the one who had a bit of a 'thing' with Panda Arnold and wasn't she the reason for him doing a runner? Someone is bound to know the answer.
I still have not resolved the problem of books at Langeleben. I cannot believe that I went 15 months with nothing to read. There must have been access to books. And before anyone (and I mean you, young Thomas) makes a snide remark about my age, there were books about in my time and, anyway, I could be a smart-arse and refer to 'Incumabula' I suppose. At least Gordon would understand what I was waffling on about.
David Thomas
In the sunnier and much more civilised times at Langeleben there were quite a number of books, I don’t remember there ever being a library as such, it was just an informal arrangement of “two's up” on whoever was reading a book you fancied. It was then that Harold Robbins really came to the fore. I seem to recall that Shane Grey, and Sven Hassel were also quite popular, but I expect that you I Corps types were more into Homer, Plato or Mein Kampf. Playboy, Mayfair and Esquire had yet to hit the newsstands. All the best. Dave
paul croxson
Who needed Playboy and Mayfair when we had such racy material as 'Blighty', Health & Efficiency' and of course the one topless young lady gracing the pages of 'Lilliput'?
If one was really fortunate you might find a much thumbed page from Blighty in the bogs; no longer required!
GerryK
Munster
Further to the discussion, Mrs B as she was known, did in fact marry Alan (Panda) Arnold. They did defect and rumour had it that she was a "plant" all along. Another I Corps bod bit the dust!!
paul croxson
I said 'someone is bound to know the answer' and Gerry did not let us down. I believe Panda was thrown back by the Russians/East Germans as being too small a fish. Panda was around in my day 1955 and I was sure that he was then in the R. Sigs. I had absolutely nothing to do with him which if he had been Int Corps would have been surprising.
Digging around for information on Patchett B. I came across a book "Crossing the River"by Victor Grossman (Stephen Wechsler) who swam to freedom across the Danube. From what he says, the average Squaddie was not too welcome and very much an embarrasment. Contrary to some stories he said that there was no internment camp in Bautzen, they were free to move around though only within Bautzen County. The were handed out the odd 20 marks which, on the whole was rapidly converted into beer.
RonB
See Panda's got a mention again. I Corps S/Sgt in 54/55. I did a post on him on the Brian Patchett thread some time ago but it disappeared off the forum after a couple of days. Thought I had upset someone.
How did he get into 'culture'?
David Thomas
Come on guys, give us break, if we’re going to be deviant, can we please stick to one deviation at a time. There was I following Paul’s book theme, with Zane Grey, (not Shane, sorry) and Playboy, then suddenly we’re thrust right back into espionage mode with “Panda” Arnold and Brian Patchett. All this on top of a bottle of Piat d’or, it’s just too much for a bear of very little brain. All the best. Dave.
Gordon
Paul, I don't do false modesty. And my civvies were as far from your imagining as it is possible to be. I was in my Angry Young Man period at that time, and my most prized article of clothing was a russet polo-necked sweater. Very useful, incidentally, for keeping warm in the winter of early 1958. G
Gordon
Somebody will tell me that this has nothing to do with Munster, but I’ll go with it all the same. Another memory of the Dom sticks in my mind. One day I was walking to Konigslutter just as a funeral cortege was entering the gate to the churchyard. It was a sad little gathering: just the minister, the sexton and an assistant pushing the coffin on a trolley, and fewer than half a dozen mourners. I stood respectfully until they had passed, recalling how a year previously at my sister ‘s funeral complete strangers had stood in respect for her as her cortege passed. I guess that with the exception of special occasions it would be quite rare now to see such expressions of sympathy. Perhaps the wayside shrine, virtually unknown in this country twenty years ago, has taken their place.
paul croxson
I would have thought that by now you would have appreciated, Gordon, that the original subject invariably disappears very rapidly.
When a young lad I lived close to a cemetry, a crematorium and a Jewish Cemetry*. Everyone stopped for the corteges - woe betide you if you didn't stop and show respect; you would soon get an earful and, in those trilby wearing days men would invariably doff (what a lovely word) their hats. Also, a black armband was worn as a sign of mourning. Has this disappeared as well? I went to a funeral about a month ago and very few of the mourners wore black ties and not a single lady wore a hat which, since I love them, I found very disappointing.
One of my nightmares used to be that no one, apart from the few relatives living close by, would turn up to my funeral. I'll try to remember to let you know what actually happens!
* There was a playing field next door to the Jewish Cemetry and, if you hit a six into it, you had to go and fetch the ball and you were 'out'. We used to tiptoe round the graves hoping the ball had not landed on the actual grave. Being a lousy cricketer there were very few times that I had to do it. The only times I was ever allowed to play was when they needed a ball and I had one. In those war days they were made from something called 'composition.
Talking about cricket we once played the Americans at cricket and then at baseball. Despite not knowing the rules they won at both.
There you are Gordon a perfect illustration of how not to deviate from the subject!
David Thomas
Hi Guys, I’m not so sure that respect for a funeral cortège has passed into history. In the days of my callow youth, one of my initial briefings at Denbury included the instruction that one of the time when you always salute, is when a hearse bearing a coffin passes. This came home to roost a few years later when I was serving in Harrogate, I used to go home for lunch, and sometime on the way collected fish and chips from a shop on the stray, more than once as I emerged from the shop, chips in hand, a hearse would pass by on it’s way to church; of course being in uniform I was duty bound to stand to attention and salute; I did feel a prat. Later when I was escorting dad’s coffin to the crematorium, when sighting the hearse, a nurse in uniform crossed herself and bowed her head in respect. It’s surprising how this seemingly small token of respect to the departed brings comfort to the grieving relatives; and many people still do it.
I’m not sure just how the current ostentatious display which occurs in Wooten Basset each week fits into the national consciousness. Initially it was a genuine expression of respect by concerned individuals, however, I suspect that now it has taken on a life and ceremony of its own, and is too big to stop. For their own peace of mind, families concerned have to be part of it, and would I not have it any other way; a public demonstration of their huge loss is the very least that their loved one deserves. From another web site I know that ex soldiers wishing to pay their respect to repatriated soldiers find their own quieter spots further along the route. Never the less they turn out to do their bit, even although there is no one around to witness it.
Taking Paul’s point about wearing black ties and/or arm bands; very often these days particularly if the deceased was young, the family ask mourners not to wear black, but to wear bright colours as they wish to remember their kin in a lighter mood. Perhaps, instead of seeing these changes as a lack of respect, they may just be a change in attitude to death, and an acceptance of the inevitable. On this sombre note, after all it is Remembrance Sunday, I’ll take my leave. All the best. Dave
BrianK
A disgrace....................
Mr. Thomas.................
I find the use of the word ostentatious in your last post both unworthy and a disgrace. May I suggest that you make more use of a dictionary if unsure of a word, because the word ostentatious does mean vulgar,(Odhams Concise English Dictionary) but if thats what you mean then, sir, you are a shite........
Brian, it all depends on what dictionary you are reading from, in both Longmans New Generation and the Penguin English dictionary the meaning for ostentatious is given as an unnecessary display of wealth or knowledge designed to impress or attract attention, another very old dictionary that I have gives the meaning as vain or pretentious display, a flamboyant show. Knowing David as I do I am sure that vulgarity never entered his mind and that he meant what he said in the loosest sense, it does seem that Wooten Basset have taken on the mantle of mourners for the nation in this regard.
Gordon
Interesting contributions these. I’m not sure how to assess the public mood. Some time ago I was trying to clear a parked car from the rather congested space outside my church before a funeral (of a veteran as it happened). The owner objected on the grounds that the church had no right to say how a public road should be used. A frosty conversation between us followed. I suggested that an old soldier who had spent three days on the beach at Dunkirk deserved in death, no less than in life, some consideration. I left to attend to other things. When I came back, determined to repeat my speech, but this time loudly, I found the car had gone. But it left me with a lot of uncomfortable thoughts about our sense of responsibility to one another. Not to mention our sense of history. According to a survey by the veterans’ charity Erskine, one in twenty British schoolchildren think Adolf Hitler was a German football manager.
paul croxson
Oh dear!
I feel that I am about to enter an unwanted unwelcome argument here.
I think that I know what Dave means and would like to think, knowing the man well that there are no circumstances in which he could be described as Brian has sadly chosen to do.
Referring to the Oxford Concise Dictionary (slightly more reliable than Odhams, I add with some reluctance) one - there are several - definition of 'ostentation' is:-
"the attempt or intention to attract notice".
Surely this is precisely what is being done and what Dave is referring to.
There are other aspects of the national mourning for the death of a soldier that do not always fit comfortably with life; certainly as I have seen it. It seems ironic, for example, that, if we are to believe everything we hear and read, every casualty, every death has been that of 'the perfect son; the perfect father, the perfect husband or in the case of the tragic death of the Intelligence Corps officer 'daughter and wife'. We also know that not every soldier is "a first class soldier, respected by all his comrades" as every C.O. has to say but these are the words that the family will want hear albeit that they are of little comfort in the face of such adversity. We've all served in one way or another in the Army and know that soldiers are a mixture - good and bad. It isn't true that, to quote the song, "Only the good die young".
I truly hope that this causes no offence to ANYONE. None is meant.
BrianK
People may wrap it up with various other meanings of the word used but you cannot get away from the fact that it was still a disgraceful word to use and I see that the silence from Mr. Thomas is deafening. Two of this areas finest, one from Cleethorpes and one from Grimsby will be escorted through Sutton Bassett tomorrow and I would give my eye teeth to be there to pay my respects. I will be on the route when they eventually 'come home' and will be proud to do so. Of course people say that 'they are the best' etc, what the hell do you expect? At the end of the day if they lose their lives in the service of their country, in my opinion, they are the best!
Brian Keightley..................Grimsby
RonB
I don’t believe David intended any offence and he does go on to say that a public demonstration of grief and support is the least the soldiers and their families deserve.
I have attended two funerals of people whose tragic deaths were subject to national press coverage, one a close family member. Whilst the majority of the people outside the churches were genuine mourners and showing their respect, it was felt that there were a few who attended for the spectacle. This is inevitable. In the case of the soldiers being brought home each week, however, I think any ‘sightseers’ will have long ago dropped away and those attending have genuinely accepted a duty to show respect on behalf of the nation.
paul croxson
I find it impossible to accept the concept that in this day and age young people volunteer for the armed forces out of a sense of patriotism. I can think of many totally valid reasons for signing up; several of my friends tell me "I always wanted to be a soldier". I have other friends who 'love a fight', particularly amongst my naval friends of whom there are quite a few, living as I do on the edge of Portsmouth. There is also the unfortunate economic need to get a job with vast swathes. particularly in the Midlands and the North now de-industrialised. All these I accept but not necessarily applaud.
We get carried away, quite rightly with the tragic loss of young men and a couple of young women in the 'nearly wars' but, year after year, after year we tolerate awful statistics such as that in 2005 569 people - mainly young men - died in motorcycle accidents. The figure for last and this year will probably be comparable. Yes we tolerate this loss! The roads are not lined when they make their sad last journey to the cemetry.
What is it then that is being marked when the bodies of these young men and women come home? It isn't the dieing.
In those days of conscription, happily now gone, was the death of a conscript who did not have the slightest desire to 'fight for his country' of lesser value than that of a regular soldier who had signed up willingly, accepting the possibility of death?
I wonder how many deaths there are away from the battlefields amongst the 102,000 serving soldiers. If you look at the Army website you will see that the possibility of death certainly isn't being hidden. There is the ammunition technician being offered as a choice of career. (They certainly die as we recently saw). There is the Black Watch returning from Afghanistan. They lost a few! And Remembrance day. The only bit not surrounded by the possibility of death is the Royal Military Academy and we all know that officers get killed pretty regularly. By the way, that statistic that the life expectancy of a 2nd Lieut in WW1 was 2 weeks is absolute garbage.
I am confused.
BrianK
What a load of bull dust, waffle, smoke and mirrors If people on this site cannot accept the fact that it was a total disgrace to use that particular word, and admit it, without leaping to Mr Thomas' defence then you should all read the following. Don't know where it came from but read and digest....................
If you can read this in English, thank a teacher,
If you are free to read this, thank a Serviceman.
A little dramatic maybe in our day but not in this day and age. May be slightly corrupted but it still rings true.................
BrianK
paul croxson
Brian,
You are patently looking for an argument, one that is not being sought by anyone else on this site as must be obvious to everyone but you.
Those lines that you quote come from a bumper sticker produced in America at a time when the appreciation of the military was at its lowest.
As far as I am concerned it is an inane little slogan for jingoistic people. And I know precisely the meaning of every word that I have used., at least in accordance with the Concise Oxford Dictionary.
I was able to read your email courtesy of my optometrist who used to call himself an 'optician' until he doubled his prices. I must get a sticker for this
Oh, and then there's the surgeon who cut out my cancer. Is there room for another sticker?
I put this sticker in the same class as those who go around claiming that they have a 'little Princess on board' or telling my that "a dog is for life."
Basically the second half of this bumper sticker reinforces the paranoid notion that there is a queue a kilometere long, chomping on the bit to invade us, to force us to adopt their culture and speak their language. Actually, thinking about it, wasn't it the other way round for the past 300 years? Who are we to demand other Nations adopt our method of mis-governance we choose to call democracy? Why is it that we have sent our Christian Missionaries all around the World but when it comes to it happening to us (which, by the way, has not happened yet as far as Islam is concerned) we are screaming "Foul"?
There is, in your messages, the unspoken implication that all wars that have been and are being fought by British soldiers are noble and good and being fought so that we British can enjoy our freedoms. Oh, and that ALL soldiers are gentlemen and Scholars. Sorry Brian; I hate to break the bad news to you. It just aint true!
I would rather we question why we are fighting and what atrocities we might be afflicting on people in other countries and how Governments (of ALL persuasions) lie to us about both. We are, according to you, supposed to simply be grateful that the war is being fought on our behalf. No way!The second half of your couplet also implies that war is the only way to resolve conflict: to which I reply "Garbage" or words of a similar vein.
Yes, I do thank unreservedly the people who serve our country even though I may think many of their orders are misguided and may well actually harm this country long-term as well as themselves and many innocent civilians.
I am now finished with this topic. Others may well want to continue. Good luck and best wishes to all my Langeleben ex-colleagues, especially Dave.
As they used to say in the Olden Days "We all have done our bit"
BrianK
Well here we are again...................the imperious statement of 'you're finished with this' Bit like when you decided that the BNP had no part of this site. You really are a spouter of obnoxious tripe, you know, twelve words when one will suffice and obviously come from the school of 'shout long and loud enough' believing what you say will be taken seriously. Bet you really are a wow at a party, thats if you get invited to any of course? Why you had to enter this argument on behalf of Mr. Thomas god only knows, as the word he originally used had no defence whatsoever. Still awaiting a reply from the gentleman himself by the way.
