I’m sure the answers to the following questions are somewhere in the History or the Forum, but I’d be grateful if someone could remind me.
1. When was the “great flap”, the occasion when a stand to was ordered, ammunition issued, and a truck sent to Slutter to round up men from their favourite pubs? Presumably it was sometime in the period 23 October to 4 November 1956 since I gather that it happened during the heightened international tensions that accompanied the Hungarian Revolution. Do we have a precise date?
2. Did the alert originate in Langeleben, or was it ordered from higher up the command chain?
3. Did it originate from intercepts made at Langeleben?
4. Is it known whether there was specific intelligence about a possible Soviet move, or was it in response to an unusual pattern of radio traffic?
Thanks in anticipation
Gordon
David Thomas
Hi Gordon,
since I was still at school during the period you mention, I can’t be a lot of help; and I’ve certainly no wish to detract in any way from your enquiry, but as it can take a day or two for people to formulate their answers, I’ll chip in with a bit. The only proper alert I can remember during my time was at the end of November ’63 when President Kennedy visited Dallas. I should imagine the whole of Allied forces in Europe were put on stand by, but as always, we had no clear instructions of what we should do, so we met up in the bar and had a few jars. All the best. Dave T.
RonB
The "Great Flap" or Stand-to
Hello Gordon,
I was at Langeleben in ’56 and as far as I am aware the flap at that time was the result of the tensions following the Hungarian uprising. Col. Lonnon came up to see us and gave us a pep talk about what would be expected of us if ‘the balloon went up’, and regaled us on the exploits of 101 troop in Greece and Crete, carrying their sets during the retreat and working when ever they were able to stop. When he’d finished we thought things must be getting serious!
The only hasty recovery of troops from K I can recall was when fighting broke out between some local youths and American soldiers. Trucks were sent to get ours out of town before they became involved. This was an isolated occasion as, as we all know, relations with the locals were extremely good. I think ‘Rock Around the Clock‘was showing at the local cinema.
There was an earlier ‘flap’. Apparently an inexperienced observer, not used to the normal numbers of soviets in East Germany reported troops massing near the border. This resulted in our American colleagues down the road immediately recalling their troops back to barracks. This may have been in’55. This is only ‘hearsay’, but I have seen a mention of it on the web and can’t remember where.
Gordon
I have just remembered what started me on this trail: it's a section of chapter one of the History Project, which reads:
"During the Hungarian Uprising in 1956, the unit was on full alert. One Saturday night instructions were received to call all personnel back to camp. Syd G......., the pay clerk, had the unenviable task of going round town to round everyone up! Eventually this was achieved, and the unit made ready to evacuate, with the cooks and pay clerk defending the road against possible attack from Russian tanks! Fortunately the stand-down was ordered shortly afterwards".
If anyone else remembers this incident, I would be really glad to read further posts about it.
And thanks Ron for your contribution.
Gordon
Gordon
If the flap happened on a Saturday night, the date must have been either 27 October or 3 November, the two Saturdays falling between 23 October and 4 November 1956.
Gordon
GerryK
Big Flap
You have just beaten me to it Gordon. Have got out the Grey Book " Farewell to Langeleben" and found the relevent entry. It was as you quote, and the Pay Clerk was the late Cpl Syd Grimshaw. Having met Syd one cant imagine the 3rd Shock Army being intimidated !!
Gerry K
paul croxson
There was another 'flap' prior to this. It had to be between April 1955 and July 1956, nearer the first. There was a dramatic increase in 'traffic' and Df showed serious movements. Capt. Wallace I Corps decided that he should take a closer look. The Autobahn had also been closed (not the only time) and for some reason, certainly not my military skills, he took me with him. On reflection, I suppose that I was the most expendable. I was scared stiff and genuinely thought that my last days were approaching. We drove down to the banks of the Elbe where DF had shown them to be and there were already British squaddies there. Wallace explained why we were there and they casually replied to the effect "Yes, they are just over there" and they were. My first sight of the Russian Bear. After a few days they went home, it was an exercise to wind us up presumably, and we all breathed great sighs of relief.
There was another evacuation of the Camp during that period, well before Hungary. Again, I was left behind, and I have photos of it to prove this! Some wagons disappeared for days!
By the way, as I have said before, relations were not always wonderful between us and the Germans in the fifties. There was always a simmering discontent that we were an 'Occupying Power'* and on gaining sovereignty we were locked in Camp for 48 hours with Germans banging on the wire around the Camp and screaming at us. When finally we were let out two chaps went down to Konigslutter. On their way back they were badly beaten up. One was Ernie Castledine. Virtually the whole Camp went down to town the following night to 'sort things out' but not surprisingly the local louts stayed in with Mum that night.
It should also not be forgotten that there were quite a few ex-soldiers still around who resented being part of a defeated army, some were still Nazis and one Pub was their base. WE NEVER went near it. I cannot recall its name but it had this reputation for some years. I drank in Schumanns and I used to speak to the regulars several were ex-soldiers but none had fought on the Western Front. A bit odd that, I used to think, being a bit cynical as a youth
*This, by the way, meant that we were on "Active Service", technically speaking. Where's my medal?
RonB
Paul,
I hadn't heard of the difficult times withn the locals in '55. At least not in so much detail. Things had quietened down a lot by the time I got there. A great deal of effort was made by trhe various C O' s to cement good relations and by and large they were successful. When independence was granted the only thing I noticed back at regiment was the increase in rail fares when we lost our cheap rates.
Ron
RonB
Paul
Just picked up your last point. I did meet one man who had fought on the Western front. He was taken prisoner and the thing he remembered most about England was that we had red cows, whereas he'd only seen black and white ones before. Totally irrelevant to flaps at Langeleben, but never mind.
Gordon
Ron. The irrelevant bits are the best.
G
Ernie Callaghan
The Great Flap
Just to enlighten you Paul, the pub in question was the Deutches Haus, the Bruderschaft were still holding meetings there in the late fifties to the strains of Horst Wessel and Deutschland uber alles, by 1958 these meetings had ceased and relations with the local poplace was on a friendlier footing, I think that by this time the realizeation that we at the camp were the main source of the towns income, especially by Hermann Schumann who we made a relatively rich man, ironically Hermann was stabbed to death by another German after he had moved out of Koenigslutter in the late sixties.
paul croxson
Ernie.
I drank regularly at the Deutscheshaus when in funds. It had the juke box of course and was the main bus-stop for the 3tonner back to Camp. I never realised that there was an underlying Nazi movement there and that wasn't the Pub that I meant. Funny how we are still learning about the place. One day to illustrate the difficulties between the Army and the 'natives' we should get some of those who tried and failed and some succeeded to marry local girls to tell their stories. In our early days it was an actual offence as you may recall (being old yourself!!!)
Ernie Callaghan
The great flap
Fraternizeation was no longer an offence when I was there 1957/9, marriages had already occurred as early as 1955, an American friend of mine Jim Tobias married Jutte Niedemeyer, daughter of the woman who managed the Deutches Haus, they remained married untill Jutte's sad death in 2006.
Anyway I fraternized at least three times a week with the lovely Ingrid, my first love, who is now 67 years old and lives in Wolsdorf
